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Old 22nd March 2009, 10:25 PM   #3391
stein2 is offline stein2  Serbia
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Sorry, didn't mean no offense...

If you want to, you can do it any way it makes it ok for you and your needs. Especially if you do want to use it under odd conditions. I have no intentions arguing, and placing copper between the OD and the heatsink might be a solution to test and measure if you need to increase the insulation between the copper and aluminum. The results might be pleasing but then, they might be not. Fortunately, there are cheap and reliable multimeters to measure the difference...
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Old 22nd March 2009, 10:43 PM   #3392
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khundude: as stein2 said, absolutely no offence meant... you are of course dead right, if no-one pushed the boat (!) out a bit, no progress would be made.

Be sure to post pics & details of whatever you do - it will serve as a template for others.

I suppose I would like to find out what the benefit is of running at higher bias levels in general - jus tthinking in my own case, would it be worth going to some extra effort to dump more heat and run them harder is all.....


Fran
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Old 23rd March 2009, 03:54 AM   #3393
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My main issue is that my ambient room temp is around 32C. This is a high starting point and you can imagine that I do not want more heat inside. Water cooling makes sense to me.

The TEC plates are in hand and won't hurt to try. I can whip up a 12V PS. My problem hear is how to control it? I am seriously thinking of turning my F4 balanced monos into a hot water heater for my shower. I am trying to make my house as simple as possible. It makes sense to me to use the heat for something and the only thing I need it for is the shower water and it is the easiest way to get it out of the room. I would heatsink the power supplies of all audio, TEC, and the PC to the shower as well. My thought for the TEC and spreader plate is not to be more efficient, but to try and lower the die temps. I think that if I sandwich the FET between a couple of water cooled cold plates with a couple of TEC in there too I should be able to greatly reduce the die temp. My thoughts are that if I can signifantly lower the die temps, I can vary the bias and bias them more!
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Old 23rd March 2009, 04:07 AM   #3394
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magura
Here you can see one way of doing it.

JFET's ready for abuse

Magura

That would do exactly what I mean, just excecuted differently. I would use two flat peices of copper instead of one and screw them together to sandwich it. How did it work out?
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Old 23rd March 2009, 04:12 AM   #3395
labjr is offline labjr  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by khundude
My main issue is that my ambient room temp is around 32C. This is a high starting point and you can imagine that I do not want more heat inside. Water cooling makes sense to me.

The TEC plates are in hand and won't hurt to try. I can whip up a 12V PS. My problem hear is how to control it? I am seriously thinking of turning my F4 balanced monos into a hot water heater for my shower. I am trying to make my house as simple as possible. It makes sense to me to use the heat for something and the only thing I need it for is the shower water and it is the easiest way to get it out of the room. I would heatsink the power supplies of all audio, TEC, and the PC to the shower as well. My thought for the TEC and spreader plate is not to be more efficient, but to try and lower the die temps. I think that if I sandwich the FET between a couple of water cooled cold plates with a couple of TEC in there too I should be able to greatly reduce the die temp. My thoughts are that if I can signifantly lower the die temps, I can vary the bias and bias them more!
When the water cooler breaks down you'll have a China Syndrome in your living room.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 07:02 AM   #3396
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Why would it do that and wouldn't a thermistor prevent it? Nobody listens... I am not going to have a bloody 500W space heater in my tropical home where night time ambient is around 30C! I am also not going to leave the whole amp outside. What scares me is when my best friend, a top engineer, looks at the FET/sink combo and laughed, "that sure is primitive." I think in most situation a big chunk of heater in a North American homes is a good thing. It is never a good thing in the jungle. I was even looking as sealed waterproof aluminum project boxes to hold the boards and mounting the coldplate to the box leaving a humidity free chamber.


A little perspective on the environment called the rainforest... It's hot and wet! If I already have the amp sealed as tight as a drum I could float the whole think in my aquarium and it would make more sense that a big heatsink in the room. I beleive Mr. Pass has purchase water cooling systems before, must not have been to dumb an idea. Porsche finally switched the 911 to water cooled in 1993 because the power output was too great for an air-cooled engine. When you cut metal with a power saw you use water or oil to cool it, not air. There is a reason for that, water removes heat 20 times as well as air.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 07:26 AM   #3397
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Plenty of water/fluid cooler gear incl computers, motors, etc - works like a charm, and has done for many years.
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Old 23rd March 2009, 07:58 AM   #3398
stein2 is offline stein2  Serbia
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I wonder how complicated it would be to fit one CM Gemini II S per output device... Would surely reduce the free space within the housing but then... I bought one for my PC proc and removed all the ventilators except the one in the PSU which I replaced with Gemini's... Cold, cool and above all, silent. ... or to try a similar solution... but don't mind me, I just doubled the required amount of heatsinks on my F5s and keep it at a reasonable 45 degrees celsius...
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Old 23rd March 2009, 12:36 PM   #3399
flg is offline flg  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by khundude
...my best friend, a top engineer, looks at the FET/sink combo and laughed, "that sure is primitive." ...the environment called the rainforest... It's hot and wet! ...water removes heat 20 times as well as air.
I'm supprised. Your top Eng friend should be helping you and not laughing Ask him about the efficiency improvement of your heatsinks due to the extreme humidity in the air
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Old 23rd March 2009, 01:14 PM   #3400
opc is offline opc  Canada
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Khundude:

You seem to be all over the place with your requirements. Do you want your room to be cooler, or your dies to be cooler? You keep insisting that your ambient temp in the room is too high, but dissipating another 50W per channel to run a TEC is alright?

The heat has to go somewhere, and unless the amp is outside, then it's going to end up in the room where you keep the amp. It doesn't matter if you put it in an aquarium, or use it to heat shower water, you're still going to end up with more heat, unless you come up with a way of moving the heat outside. As for the shower idea, what happens for the other 23.75 hours a day that you're not running the shower? You'd need a large, well insulated reservoir, along with a pump and waterblocks for the fets. If you have all that indoors, then you're still going to find the room warmer, unless you happen to run across some perfect insulation somewhere.

From my experience with PC cooling, water really is great, and yes, I suppose a transistor mounted to a block of aluminum is probably a little old fashioned when you look at it next to the more sophisticated systems in PC's. In the end though, computers are all about high density, and that's why water cooling makes sense in that application. Hi-fi amplifiers on the other hand, don't really need that density, or that level of cooling.

I've attached a picture of the water loop in my PC, so you know I'm not talking out my ****. The PC draws a constant 355 watts from the wall, and closer to 650W under full load. It keeps my office nice and toasty all year round, but at least it's quiet, which was the point of the water cooling.

Tossing your computer in a large vat of oil is all the rage right now in the PC cooling world. Maybe you could toss your F5 in an aquarium full of oil, seal it up, and toss the whole thing outside. I think connectivity could become a little bit of an issue though. Maybe you could try different oils and see how it changes the sound? I bet EVOO would sound best, but only cold pressed.

Cheers,
Owen
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