A friend of mine promised nice gift for me: CD player with balanced outputs. My equipment have unbalanced inputs (BoZ and Zen v2).
I know there is dirty trick by shorting one of balanced outputs to the ground but I'm concerned about signal distortion and/or noise.
Quick search yielded this op-amp adaptor:
http://emusician.com/diy/emusic_build_em_level/
Can you please comment adding this adapter to my system in order to use full potential of new CD player.
If not, oh well. I'm going to build another amp with balanced inputs
I know there is dirty trick by shorting one of balanced outputs to the ground but I'm concerned about signal distortion and/or noise.
Quick search yielded this op-amp adaptor:
http://emusician.com/diy/emusic_build_em_level/
Can you please comment adding this adapter to my system in order to use full potential of new CD player.
If not, oh well. I'm going to build another amp with balanced inputs
bays_9a5tt said:A friend of mine promised nice gift for me: CD player with balanced outputs. My equipment have unbalanced inputs (BoZ and Zen v2).
I know there is dirty trick by shorting one of balanced outputs to the ground but I'm concerned about signal distortion and/or noise.
Quick search yielded this op-amp adaptor:
http://emusician.com/diy/emusic_build_em_level/
Can you please comment adding this adapter to my system in order to use full potential of new CD player.
If not, oh well. I'm going to build another amp with balanced inputs
just go and build another amp with balanced inputs ;
too many OPs ; frankly- even one is too much
bays_9a5tt said:
Using only one of the signal phases of a balanced line does not inherently generate distortion. Likewise, it does not generate noise.
You don't short one output to ground. You short the unused phase of the input to ground. Leave the unused output phase alone.
Avoid opamps. That particular cure is worse than the disease.
I'm neutral on transformers. I've used them in tube gear with good results, but avoid them in solid state because they're generally unnecessary. This is one such case.
Grey
Output transformers. Yes, it's possible to do without (e.g. Atma-Sphere), but at the time I was building "normal" amps.
And, yes, it's possible to use output transformers for solid state. The best known example being McIntosh (okay, an autoformer, if you want to be picky), but it's best to avoid them if it's possible. Like caps, they influence the sound. You do without if you can...if you must use one, pay whatever the going rate is for a really good one and go on to the next thing.
Grey
And, yes, it's possible to use output transformers for solid state. The best known example being McIntosh (okay, an autoformer, if you want to be picky), but it's best to avoid them if it's possible. Like caps, they influence the sound. You do without if you can...if you must use one, pay whatever the going rate is for a really good one and go on to the next thing.
Grey
The last time I looked, transformers were transformers. They have a magnetic core and two or more windings. Regardless of signal levels, they work in the same way--trade current for voltage or voltage for current. It matters not whether they are input, interstage, or output...they all obey the same laws of physics.
Or did someone change the rules?
Grey
Or did someone change the rules?
Grey
If there is any signal degradation, (and I have yet to hear any), with the excellent Cinemags that Steve was kind enough to organise a GB for, then it is more than outweighed by the isolation improvements that they provide. I'm sure that anyone that heard my version of SY's Heretical Line Stage at the UK get-together will agree.
Re: Re: balanced source to unbalanced amp?
To help us understand the limitation of opamps, could you name some discrete amps whose sound quality is somewhat better, comparble, and somewhat worse than that of the best opamps (e.g., opa627)?
The reason I am asking this is that digital players (even some expensive ones) routinely use opamps for IV and filtering. I would like to know at what point they become the bottleneck for sound quality. To replace all of them in a multi-channel sacd player with discrete circuits is a daunting task. Sometimes there might not be enough space for discrete circuits.
GRollins said:
To help us understand the limitation of opamps, could you name some discrete amps whose sound quality is somewhat better, comparble, and somewhat worse than that of the best opamps (e.g., opa627)?
The reason I am asking this is that digital players (even some expensive ones) routinely use opamps for IV and filtering. I would like to know at what point they become the bottleneck for sound quality. To replace all of them in a multi-channel sacd player with discrete circuits is a daunting task. Sometimes there might not be enough space for discrete circuits.
I suppose it's inevitable that someone would want to know if I've heard the XXX or the YYY or the ZZZ. That's the way these things always go. If you brought up the '741, someone would always want to know if you'd heard the '351. If you brought up the '351, someone would want to know if you'd heard the (fill in the blank). There's always someone who wants to know if you've heard the "latest" or "most modern" or "best" opamps. Or wait until next week when the QQQ is due to be released! Preliminary specs are phenominal. And then there's the rumored AAA due out a month later and the...you get the idea...there are always new models in the pipeline, each is supposed to be the be-all, end-all.
Suffice it to say that the capacitors in chips are made of less than optimal materials. When the parts quality in chips gets to the point where they've managed mica, polystyrene, or Teflon caps, then we'll talk about the quality of the resistors. Until that point, "sound quality" and "opamp" are not likely to be compatible.
As far as replacing opamps in an existing piece of equipment...that's a bear. All the moreso because things are trending towards surface mount and getting really, really tiny. Shoehorning a discrete circuit into such a minuscule footprint is a nightmare. For those who are designing and building from scratch, it's not a problem. The circuit board can be any necessary size.
Grey
Suffice it to say that the capacitors in chips are made of less than optimal materials. When the parts quality in chips gets to the point where they've managed mica, polystyrene, or Teflon caps, then we'll talk about the quality of the resistors. Until that point, "sound quality" and "opamp" are not likely to be compatible.
As far as replacing opamps in an existing piece of equipment...that's a bear. All the moreso because things are trending towards surface mount and getting really, really tiny. Shoehorning a discrete circuit into such a minuscule footprint is a nightmare. For those who are designing and building from scratch, it's not a problem. The circuit board can be any necessary size.
Grey
GRollins said:
For those of us who cannot afford sacd players with discrete circuits (usually cost more than $5000), "better" opamps may be our only choice. If even the best opamps cannot compete with decent (not the best) discrete circuits, there is not much to gain by having better preamps and power amps. Therefore I wonder how many people here have experienced what Pass Amps are capable of.
I've got a DVPS-9000ES that I use to play SACDs. I glanced inside with the intent to see what I could see...and gave up. Too much stuff in too small a space. I take it as is and put my attention elsewhere.
Audio gear is going the same way cars did. You don't service cars in the old-fashioned sense of actually fixing them, you just plug in new things and throw the old one away. Audio gear isn't even made to those standards...if it breaks, you throw away the whole thing and buy a new one. The ultimate in no-worries service. High end gear is the one exception. That you can still work on and even modify if you're so motivated.
Grey
Audio gear is going the same way cars did. You don't service cars in the old-fashioned sense of actually fixing them, you just plug in new things and throw the old one away. Audio gear isn't even made to those standards...if it breaks, you throw away the whole thing and buy a new one. The ultimate in no-worries service. High end gear is the one exception. That you can still work on and even modify if you're so motivated.
Grey
ctong said:
This is a logical fallacy. One not supported by even a cursory listen to better equipment.
The line of reasoning goes like this: Since there are opamps in the recording studio the signal is irretrievably damaged and there is no point in even attempting better gear in the home. The end result is that people use opamps in their playback system because they figure it can't hurt.
(Paradoxically, these same people are often obsessed with distortion specifications, itself a belief that audio circuits are perfectible. A moment's thought shows the illogic here to be of the same sort--if the signal is, in fact, damaged beyond all recall, then there's no point in fretting over multiple zeros in the distortion spec.)
But signal quality isn't a binary on/off switch. It's not either destroyed or intact. It's a question of progressive deterioration. Yes, the studios employ circuits I wouldn't use in a boom box, but we can't change that. Our job is to treat the signal as carefully as we can once it comes into our hands. We can control several steps in the process. The source is, for the most part, out of our control. Few people wind their own cartridges, or build their own CD/SACD players. However, we can build our own phono stages, line stages, amplifiers, power amplifiers, crossovers and speakers.
That care and attention in the playback chain is worthwhile is easily demonstrated. Just compare a boom box to a mid-fi system, then compare the mid-fi system to a high end system. It's a trivial observation that it's a diminishing returns curve. But that doesn't mean that there aren't improvements to be had.
Grey
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