Advice for Linkwitz Orion system with Nelson Pass-style pre-amp and amp - Page 7 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Pass Labs

Pass Labs This forum is dedicated to Pass Labs discussion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th November 2007, 12:43 AM   #61
Variac is offline Variac  United States
diyAudio Editor
 
Variac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Francisco, USA
Grey, I agree that it is very likely that Linkwitz has a bias towards using fiters instead of other solutions, and that is what makes it an Orion IMHO. This project was started by a guy that likes his Orions but wants to go further.

You know well that I was making a point that every solution has its good and bad points including offset. In my limited experience, I would be tempted to approach the problem as you suggested, but I suspect the final speaker designed by me would be not as good as the current Orion, and would not be in the spirit of the Orion.

Clearly, as originally defined, the solution should be similar to one of your statements. The idea is to make everything as similar to the original Orion as possible except for the ASP, THEN we can answer the question which I feel is the "philosophical " one here: Will the sound of the speaker- already acknowleged by many as being quite good, be improved by:

1. discrete components
Or
2. better opamps
3. Strangely you didn't mention this one and I think it is the most powerful: Eliminating some opamps by artful manipulation.

I think 1 and 3 are of the most interest to people here and I think that only you seem to find this bothersome. There is also a practical matter here. The owner of Orions would find it very easy to compare the original ASP to the modified ASP, Whereas if the physical speaker panel is changed, then comparisons are going to be difficult, as is the possibility of most people here contributing to the design as it appears that many people here don't even own the speakers let alone have listened to them..

  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 12:53 AM   #62
Variac is offline Variac  United States
diyAudio Editor
 
Variac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Francisco, USA
Nelson, don't you sometimes use a passive network before a power amp, and would that be one of the approaches here?
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 09:43 AM   #63
S.A.G. is offline S.A.G.  Italy
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milano
Variac,

Given the large quantity of OpAmp involved, point number three above is where I would focus most of the efforts here. The M.O.J. Hawksford paper referenced before could be one viable alternative.

Also, using some passive filtering could be a viable solution as it should trade some S/N ratio for better distortion figures.

SL himself provides some guidelines for passive, line level filtering:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/proto.htm

Regards

Giorgio
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 10:28 AM   #64
Nicke is offline Nicke  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Nicke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Originally posted by GRollins
If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that if someone already has a solution in mind, they are resistant to trying any other possibility that may come up. You see it everywhere, Washington D.C., the Middle East, at work, in marriages, you name it.

Grey
Grey, that is the exactly what you are doing, you judge the design without having heard it just because of the choices SL made with the physical design and the ASP.

The Orion(I have a pair at home) sounds great with the opamps IMHO, but if there could be improvements with the ASP I would like to try them.One easy way would be to replace some of the opamps(around the filter sections) with a couple of JFET buffers, it would not be that difficult to build an adapter with 2 buffers that could be put in the IC socket...
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 11:21 AM   #65
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mountain View, CA
Isn't it important to remember that offsetting a driver and introducing a time delay really aren't equivalent? Like, at all? Since the Orion is a dipole speaker it's probably safe to assume off-axis response was one of SL's priorities in its design. Physically offsetting a driver changes the off-axis response in a way that electronic time-delay does not.

No?
__________________
Wingfeather
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 12:57 PM   #66
diyAudio Member
 
Andersonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Default I like playing the name game.

First off, the Orion system I heard about two years ago is the best loudspeaker I have ever heard. I listened for several hours with many of my own reference tracks and other difficult passages, sometimes at loud enough volumes for the woofers to hit their stops. The delicacy of the plentiful bass alone is something which must be experienced first hand. These were driven by six Hafler DH-220 (or 200?) amps, but I still think that the lack of ultimate clarity (or liquidity or darkness) behind the treble came from the op-amp maze. (These were not Orion+ which add an additional rear tweeter.) I would still build the Orion system as-is (when I've saved up my pocket money) but would be much more motivated knowing there was a way to get around the op-amps by going discrete (and line-level passive where possible) and using as few transistors as possible. So I agree that the scope of this project should be only to simplify the ASP (and make it usable with balanced?) while leaving the drivers' physical arrangement alone.


Nobody liked the O'Brian/O'Brien idea? (I guffawed out loud!) The name "O'Brien" reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George pretends to be O'Brien to get them a limo ride from the airport and instead gets everyone in a pickle. The impostor aspect applies for us here also, plus it's just too silly to pass up. Characters from mythology seem too arcane for use here, despite being very applicable. Especially Artemis which seems eerily appropriate as killer of Orion. And "Uranus" will be the perfect name when diyAudio launches a Pluto mission.

So I nominate O'Brien ASP.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 02:45 PM   #67
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Columbia, SC
Quote:
Originally posted by Variac


3. Strangely you didn't mention this one and I think it is the most powerful: Eliminating some opamps by artful manipulation.


Actually, I've already suggested same, but people acted as though I'd insulted their grandmother. I'll bow out and let you fellas debate what to change so that nothing is changed [sic]. After all the speaker is perfect, no?
Nicke,
Anything with, what was it? 22 opamps? speaks powerfully that the designer is, shall we say, besotted with one particular approach and is convinced of the strength of his position. You folks are in the paradoxical position of saying that the ASP needs changing, but that the Orion speaker system is the most marvelous thing on the face of the planet.
Uh, sorry, but I missed something. If it's that wonderful, you should leave it alone and be happy.
My impression is that some of you need to get out and hear more speakers. Get a little more experience with what can be done by other speaker designers--without opamps and an entire factory's worth of parts. There's an entire world out speakers out there. Go hear some electrostats: Martin Logan, Quad, or Sound Labs (some of the best soud I ever heard was through a pair of Sound Labs electrostatic speakers--simply gorgeous). Listen to some Magneplanars. Try out some horns. Give some of the better box speakers a shot. No. Really. Somewhere in there, you might discover that a parts farm may look impressive, but it's not the only solution to the various problems that come up during the design phase of building speakers. It may not even be (gasp!) the best answer.
For that matter, at least some of you might even get a kick out of the full-range speakers that Nelson (and others) are spending so much time talking about. Get rid of all the surplus electronics.

Grey

P.S.: Before anyone starts in with the inevitable complaint about the price tag of the speakers I mentioned above, please note that I did not say that you should buy them--I said you should listen to them. Get out. Live a little. Learn what is possible. Should you find, say, that the Martin Logans tickle your fancy, you'll find that it's not difficult to build an electrostat. If, by some chance, you like the Magneplanars, reflect on the fact that I built a planar driver of that sort in a single afternoon.

EDIT: If you're still searching for a name, might I suggest that you're looking at this the wrong way...call it the Cleopatra, who (according to some accounts) died from the bite of an ASP.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 03:50 PM   #68
Variac is offline Variac  United States
diyAudio Editor
 
Variac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Francisco, USA
Geez indeed,Grey, you are the one creating the strawman that everyone here thinks that the speaker panel is perfect. I don't see that in the comments posted- and I personally don't think that's the case. Certainly the fact that Linkwitz designed the Audio Artistry loudspeakers, including the Beethoven model which was rated as an A, fullrange level loudspeaker by Stereophile I believe, implies that he can make a decent sounding loudspeaker. Granting that being blessed by them is not the ultimate criteria...

Instead, its as you said earlier- a philosophical choice that seemed to be made in the first post, in that ORIGINAL basic question is whether all those opamps and chipamps could be replaced or eliminated and would the speaker sound better? I think that probably everyone who posted here feels that it would.

I think that the problem was originally proposed with this angle, and that people feel that it would be a more pure experiment if some variables were left out. I agree that possibly the speaker could sound even better with a stepped baffle instead of some circuitry, but how are you planing to impliment that? Are you going to make the speaker your way? is anyone else? Instead some of us are proposing that a more controlled experiment is to just change SOME parameters and see how big an improvement (i have to say "if any " here to appear unbiased there would be)

There is a practical aspect to this as I have mentioned. A current Orion owner could swap in the new design in minutes and compare the two . Another advantage is that the design could be done possibly more realistically in an online discussion format than a speaker baffle redesign..

On the other hand , I'm not too sure who is able to do this alchemy of artistically combining the components to use less opamps. It seems that the procedure is to try to combine functions, then measure to see if you achieved your goal. Most people here probably don't have the equipment for this..or the knowledge perhaps..

I'm not the promoter or organizer of this project, so any one can do anything that they= want and post it here. Grey, if you want to make a list of changes you would make to the speaker panel and the electronics, I don't think that you will be torn apart or anything, just do it - that would have taken a lot less verbage than complaining that everyone is jumping on you..

This discussion that we must decide on a philosophy came from you I believe..

Quote:
it would be useful to set some ground rules as to what does and does not constitute fair play. I suppose it's clear that I'd go back nearly to square one, others seem to feel that a simple opamp swap is the limit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 05:49 PM   #69
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Columbia, SC
Variac,
Indeed, you have touched on the nub of the thing. From where I sit, this appears to be turning into what I call a "herding cats" thread.
--Person A wants the Orion just the way it is now, but "better" in some unspecified way. Perhaps more discussion would clarify for this person the way to go, or perhaps they're just kinda "lurking" (is that the right word?), albeit with occasional posts.
--Person B thinks chip opamps are just peachy and wants to swap opamps around. (Clearly, I'm the wrong guy for that discussion.)
--Person C wants discrete opamps that will somehow fit into Linkwitz's existing circuit board. (I dunno about that...if the board I saw on his site is the same one they want to put discrete opamps on headers into, I don't think there's enough room.)
--Person D gets the idea that Person C's desire is destined for frustration and wants a completely discrete circuit that preserves all the original functional blocks of Linkwitz's concept. And he wants PCB artwork, too. In fact, every Person from here down is going to need PCB artwork to realize their circuit.
--Person E wants to combine all the original functions into half the number of functional blocks but still using opamps.
--Person F wants the same thing as Person E, but with discrete circuitry.
--Person G sees that there are, perhaps, some things that can be dropped, but wants to keep chip opamps because he has a box full of them.
--Person H wants what G is thinking of, but discrete.
--Person I has a table saw and...
(...and at least six or eight other permutations that I'm not going to take the time to list.)
Get the picture? This is turning into a herding cats thread. That's why I asked for someone to set some boundaries to the problem. As things stand now, Person A isn't really a problem, he just wants to talk about the speaker. Person B isn't really that much of a problem, either, at least not to me...I'm the wrong guy to ask about which opamp is 'hot' this week. But from Person C on, you begin tallying separate projects and the total is going to be something like eight or ten or more related-but-separate R&D projects, with all that implies about time, money, and commitment. No thanks.
And even if you were to set strict boundaries at this point the thread would wither, because the Persons whose desires were not being met would feel cheated. At which point the end result would satisfy perhaps two or three people...maybe.
I used to try to stick with such threads. These days, I tend to back away and let the cats alone.
No harm, no foul. You folks enjoy yourselves.

Grey
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2007, 05:57 PM   #70
Pasi P is offline Pasi P  Finland
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally posted by GRollins


My impression is that some of you need to get out and hear more speakers. Get a little more experience with what can be done by other speaker designers--

That is allways good conclusion. We should listen more. Not speakes but music, though

I am pretty sure that everyone who likes Orions are not lived in darkness and listened nothing else.


Btw. Have you listened Orions?
__________________
-Pasi
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Linkwitz Orion x-over pcb's 2 for 1. Tristanc1 Swap Meet 4 26th March 2007 08:01 PM
linkwitz orion x-over pcb's Tristanc1 Swap Meet 0 8th February 2007 02:56 AM
Linkwitz-style **M baffle ? rick57 Subwoofers 8 12th December 2004 07:46 AM
My opinion on Pass Labs and Mr. Pass (Nelson) himself b_online Pass Labs 11 21st May 2003 12:39 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:56 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2