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Old 28th January 2003, 01:26 PM   #21
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Jan and Francois,

Being an amateur painter myself, I often like to make analogies
with art and painting when discussing various things. However,
I think you are going wrong here. What we are discussing is not
musical taste or musical performance, but music reproduction.
It would be more accurate then to make an analogy between
sound quality and reproduction of paintings in print, or something
similar.
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Old 28th January 2003, 01:32 PM   #22
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Default measuring

Well, you would be right if "good sound quality" means reproduction of the source sound as faithfull as possible - but even there we don't agree! Many people find that they prefer a tube amp with several % THD to a SS amp with .001% THD, although to your definition the ss one gives "better sound quality". So, you get manipulated, sort of sound, that is preferred to the original. In this state of affairs, how can anybody possibly hope to get agreement on which amp is best?

Jan Didden
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Old 28th January 2003, 01:34 PM   #23
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Exactly Christer.
When we confuse the art being replicated with the replicator itself we start exceeding our competence.
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Old 28th January 2003, 01:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: measuring

Quote:
Originally posted by janneman
Well, you would be right if "good sound quality" means reproduction of the source sound as faithfull as possible - but even there we don't agree! Many people find that they prefer a tube amp with several % THD to a SS amp with .001% THD, although to your definition the ss one gives "better sound quality". So, you get manipulated, sort of sound, that is preferred to the original. In this state of affairs, how can anybody possibly hope to get agreement on which amp is best?

Jan Didden
I think what I said is still true. We have the same problem with
the paintings. We cannot reproduce a painting perfectly and
different people would probably have different opinions on
which are the best reproductions when we have to make
trade-offs. For instance, which of the following alternative
reproductions of a painting would you prefer:
1) Is perfect in colour reproduction
2) Has infinite resulution
3) Has the same size as the original
Although a somewhat theoretical exercise, I am sure not
everyone would agree when faced with several alternatives.

However, confusing the reproductions with the paintings
themselves will just make the whole discussion more confused,
which is what I meant with my previous remark.
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Old 28th January 2003, 02:14 PM   #25
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Default measuring

Christer,

OK, yes, I see what you mean. You're right. Maybe if we carry the analogy even further, I could answer: "the reproduction that best transmits the emotion, feeling, warmth etc of the original". But then we are back to square one, how do we define those qualities.

Jan Didden
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Old 28th January 2003, 02:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: measuring

Quote:
Originally posted by janneman
...... we are back to square one, how do we define those qualities.

Jan Didden
And finding common "definitons" or "terms" or "standards"
and definitions of "how to make measurments"
is a very difficult thing.
Almost impossible.

We can see that in Computer techniques
and most fields of interest to humans.

Yet, it is good with standards that many (all) use.
We should not be able to communicate here,
if we didn't mean the same with our "words".
We use the terms that are defined by the users of English languages.

But standard, definiton or term is not a static thing.
New standards, redefinitions and new "words" emerge.
In the end it is the users of these agreements/terms/standards
that set "the definition of the day".

################################################## ###########

Give me a defintion and I can measure according to the definition.
I think that is very true.

It was some great man that once said:
"Give me a fixed point, and I will prove anything".
Question is: Which point is YOUR fixed point?
------------------------------------------------------------
Correction:
The greek Philosopher Archimedes once said
"Give me a place to stand and I will move the earth".

------------------------------------------------------------

/halo - hope you read his words in accordance to his thinking while he was writing
otherwise there will be something that we have defined by the word "misunderstanding"
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Old 28th January 2003, 03:33 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by traderbam
gtrmaker,
Emotion is the result of an individuals brain processing pressure waves that impinge upon their eardrums. It is not necessary or pertinent to measure emotions.
Measuring how accurately the pressure waves are reproduced between the original instrument and the listeners ear is what it is all about. And this is a matter of mechanics and electronics and nothing else.
Unless, of course, you are the sort of person who believes in homeopathic medicine (except in a psychological sense) in which case your method of reasoning is anathema to mine. ;-)
BAM
It is true that the brain processes pressure waves but that is only
part of the story. Emotion takes input from many different levels.
We have other parts of our bodies besides just the brain in our
heads that are affected by sound.

When you are at a live music event you can see that the audience
has a certain energy which is present that the best of performers
can access and invest back into the music instantaneously.
This is almost magical. A playback system
can't do that. But even so there are more things going on
than just an ear-brain connection when listening to HIFI.

The mind likes to think it is all.
If this were the case then a good physiscist or mathematican
could compose the ultimate symphony. Clearly that won't happen.

I agree that measuring how accurately the waves are reproduced
is or should be important but that does not address anything past
the first level. There are others.
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Old 28th January 2003, 03:50 PM   #28
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"For instance, which of the following alternative
reproductions of a painting would you prefer:
1) Is perfect in colour reproduction
2) Has infinite resulution
3) Has the same size as the original"

A good analogy. Although I think these particular attributes give the state of the art too much credit. Perhaps we are still dealing with lumpy canvasses, tears, stains, smudges, blurring and stretching.
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Old 28th January 2003, 03:51 PM   #29
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There is music that gives me the shivers when I hear it, even if it comes from a boombox. Sometimes I think the only function of the hearing in such cases is to trigger memories, which then lead to an almost authonomous process that can continue after the music ends. But that has nothing to do with "sound quality".

Jan Didden
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Old 28th January 2003, 04:42 PM   #30
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I have noticed that the sound "quality" may even somtimes depend
on whether I've had my coffee or if I'm listening in the
evening instead of the morning, or any number of other things.

But if I could measure every aspect of the system how
would that help me?

Might be just as important to have the right beer at the right
temperature.
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