I've been toying with F1, F2, F3 since about ten months (soon an elephant pregnency timing) in order to find out what best suits what. The setup : a 4 ways fostex horns driven system with a kliphshorn for the bass. A digital xover filter because it allows to set the phase and the delay compensation. Each Fs is therefore driving one driver.
Some smallish issues
F3 has 100uV noise which you can clearly hear with over 100db drivers. An LPAD helped to reduce the noise, thank you Mr Pass for the spec.
F1 has a slight thump up at turn on (80mV) which i don't like when driving tweeter, but anyway...
all have - I find - a small mecanical noise that relates to the of AC supply transformers (might change them in the future)
One F3 had an input badly screwed which did some miss contact (not a problem),
Listening rationale (oups somehow not logic here). Music is a matter of taste, of the type of music and the setup (devices and room), so my comments are nothing objective. I only tried to determine which amps would be best suited for which driver i.e frequency according to my tastes. So I swapped the Fs between the four drivers and listened and listened and and and....
In the end F1 appreared best suited for bass. It lacks nevertheless the headroom a voltage amps has. F1 is very precise and the amount of control is exercice on the driver is impressive. It is not sensitive to wire (have testes with 4mm2, 6mm2, OCOS with no differences) Nevertheless with some complex music (classics with organ or piano) it lack the depth and room in the bass region. I wondered if that is related to the little amount of power. F1 is not as fast and precise as F2 in the upper range. I found it a bit (a very small bit) bumpy in the mid range. So I settle for the bass although in some cases I would prefer a voltage amp. Compared to the voltage amp, the F1 is more precise (thus the impression of limited ?). In some instance I found it lacks the speed of conventional amps, that is what probably gives him a bit of a warmth in the lower bass which it rocks. It is not as fast / brutal bass amps as some voltage can be. Matter of taste again,
F3 are warm and a light colour effect on low / mid range (630 hz to 4300hz) especially for trumpet / saxo etc and chords instruments, very nice tube like amps. Nice, soft and delicate amps. Not very fast and brutal, not as precise over the control it has on the driver like the F1, F2 and a bit (but a bit only) bumpy in the bass (80hz). Instruments with lots of hamonics are well played, although the high end treeble are lacking the definition F2 provides. I settled for the mid range
F2, amazing for the high range (> 6300hz), hellacious fast, precise (cymbals are magnificient), and silent... There is a light coloring which appear more with some musics (vocal, opera, etc)
All in all the F3 are well suited for Jazz, blues and some classical music. The F1, F2 are a allroad stuff with some light weakness (i would dare to say) when it come to deep basses. Their precision is amazing in controling the driver. But their ruthless, if the source is (as unfortunately more and more) crap, you get the crap - it is the wysiwyg music version)
Voilà, anyway all three are very nice amps and worth listening. I enjoyed and enjoy reading the FirstWatt and DiYAudio and as many times mentionned by Mr Pass those amps are tinkerer amps, you have to allow time to play, try and play with it and enjoy the listening....
One additional thing, the FirsWatt reseller RenoHifi is very helpfull and efficient.
Regards
Some smallish issues
F3 has 100uV noise which you can clearly hear with over 100db drivers. An LPAD helped to reduce the noise, thank you Mr Pass for the spec.
F1 has a slight thump up at turn on (80mV) which i don't like when driving tweeter, but anyway...
all have - I find - a small mecanical noise that relates to the of AC supply transformers (might change them in the future)
One F3 had an input badly screwed which did some miss contact (not a problem),
Listening rationale (oups somehow not logic here). Music is a matter of taste, of the type of music and the setup (devices and room), so my comments are nothing objective. I only tried to determine which amps would be best suited for which driver i.e frequency according to my tastes. So I swapped the Fs between the four drivers and listened and listened and and and....
In the end F1 appreared best suited for bass. It lacks nevertheless the headroom a voltage amps has. F1 is very precise and the amount of control is exercice on the driver is impressive. It is not sensitive to wire (have testes with 4mm2, 6mm2, OCOS with no differences) Nevertheless with some complex music (classics with organ or piano) it lack the depth and room in the bass region. I wondered if that is related to the little amount of power. F1 is not as fast and precise as F2 in the upper range. I found it a bit (a very small bit) bumpy in the mid range. So I settle for the bass although in some cases I would prefer a voltage amp. Compared to the voltage amp, the F1 is more precise (thus the impression of limited ?). In some instance I found it lacks the speed of conventional amps, that is what probably gives him a bit of a warmth in the lower bass which it rocks. It is not as fast / brutal bass amps as some voltage can be. Matter of taste again,
F3 are warm and a light colour effect on low / mid range (630 hz to 4300hz) especially for trumpet / saxo etc and chords instruments, very nice tube like amps. Nice, soft and delicate amps. Not very fast and brutal, not as precise over the control it has on the driver like the F1, F2 and a bit (but a bit only) bumpy in the bass (80hz). Instruments with lots of hamonics are well played, although the high end treeble are lacking the definition F2 provides. I settled for the mid range
F2, amazing for the high range (> 6300hz), hellacious fast, precise (cymbals are magnificient), and silent... There is a light coloring which appear more with some musics (vocal, opera, etc)
All in all the F3 are well suited for Jazz, blues and some classical music. The F1, F2 are a allroad stuff with some light weakness (i would dare to say) when it come to deep basses. Their precision is amazing in controling the driver. But their ruthless, if the source is (as unfortunately more and more) crap, you get the crap - it is the wysiwyg music version)
Voilà, anyway all three are very nice amps and worth listening. I enjoyed and enjoy reading the FirstWatt and DiYAudio and as many times mentionned by Mr Pass those amps are tinkerer amps, you have to allow time to play, try and play with it and enjoy the listening....
One additional thing, the FirsWatt reseller RenoHifi is very helpfull and efficient.
Regards
Fs listening impression
Thanks, actually I shall say the decision to adopt Fs was based on your work / contribution for the diy audio community, and A40 which i built as well as your approach to amps whic i qualify as a
blend of simple and elegant design.
I'd be curious what are the gaps in the "Your experiences echo
mine to a large degree." Where you would "not" agree.
I'd be interested in for the F4 - in due time of course ;-)
Nelson Pass said:Thanks very much for the comments. Your experiences echo mine to a large degree.
Thanks, actually I shall say the decision to adopt Fs was based on your work / contribution for the diy audio community, and A40 which i built as well as your approach to amps whic i qualify as a
blend of simple and elegant design.
I'd be curious what are the gaps in the "Your experiences echo
mine to a large degree." Where you would "not" agree.
I'd be interested in for the F4 - in due time of course ;-)
Re: Re: Fs listening impression
Indeed, I reckon / suspected it may come from the horn and the room which is not big enough unfortunately. I also noticed the choice of the xover did influence. With some devices the bump (although not a major nuisance) was more noticable. Horn are easily bumpy in those ranges i noticed, but i quite their sonic signature.
Moste likely with the Fs and given the room, what I may once would like to improve is to get rid of the transormer mecanical noise. Now I don't know what is best. Try to find a toroidal from a other make that is more silent, encapsulate the current toroidal in a shield ? What would you suggest ? Regards
Nelson Pass said:
I have not encountered the bumpy midrange in the F1, but then
I did not use horn loaded Fostexes (Fostices?)
Indeed, I reckon / suspected it may come from the horn and the room which is not big enough unfortunately. I also noticed the choice of the xover did influence. With some devices the bump (although not a major nuisance) was more noticable. Horn are easily bumpy in those ranges i noticed, but i quite their sonic signature.
Moste likely with the Fs and given the room, what I may once would like to improve is to get rid of the transormer mecanical noise. Now I don't know what is best. Try to find a toroidal from a other make that is more silent, encapsulate the current toroidal in a shield ? What would you suggest ? Regards
Re: Re: Re: Fs listening impression
Hi, what transformer are you using? This is a timely thread for me as I am in the process of bi-amping with an Aleph30 and an F2. I have purchased two Antek's for the 30 but keep getting spooked by the Plitron vs. Antek debates for my other purchase. I have read both sides and respect the opinions of the ones who have weighed in for either transformer.
Would anyone out there care to do a torroidal shoot off? I am relatively new to diy and do not have the experience and set-up to perform it myself, I am aware that testing conditions would be subjective to the setup. I have a new Antek 20V/500VA transformer I would like to see it compared to a Plitron and could send to a willing tester, any other transformer could be used as well - A long shot I know, it would entail replacing the Plitron w/ the Antek and misc. for ‘buzz’ comparison and anything else w/ someone who is in that position for testing and has a similar Plitron or???
These transformers are expensive; the extra cost could be justified for a Plitron if in fact it is a better over-all performer.
Just a thot - Stan
Nicola said:
Nicola said:
Hi, what transformer are you using? This is a timely thread for me as I am in the process of bi-amping with an Aleph30 and an F2. I have purchased two Antek's for the 30 but keep getting spooked by the Plitron vs. Antek debates for my other purchase. I have read both sides and respect the opinions of the ones who have weighed in for either transformer.
Would anyone out there care to do a torroidal shoot off? I am relatively new to diy and do not have the experience and set-up to perform it myself, I am aware that testing conditions would be subjective to the setup. I have a new Antek 20V/500VA transformer I would like to see it compared to a Plitron and could send to a willing tester, any other transformer could be used as well - A long shot I know, it would entail replacing the Plitron w/ the Antek and misc. for ‘buzz’ comparison and anything else w/ someone who is in that position for testing and has a similar Plitron or???
These transformers are expensive; the extra cost could be justified for a Plitron if in fact it is a better over-all performer.
Just a thot - Stan
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fs listening impression
The differences are probably not worth worrying about. I use
Plitron because we get consistent mechanical/electrical
performance. I have not even tried an Antek. If they want to
send me one, I will be happy to try it.
(Like all other things: transistors, wire, phono cartridges, and wine.
No additional women, thank you.)
sklimek said:
The differences are probably not worth worrying about. I use
Plitron because we get consistent mechanical/electrical
performance. I have not even tried an Antek. If they want to
send me one, I will be happy to try it.
(Like all other things: transistors, wire, phono cartridges, and wine.
No additional women, thank you.)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fs listening impression
Hi Nelson, yes I would love for you to have a look and to hear your thoughts! If you email me with your shipping address I'll send these two out to you or if you wish to deal w/ Antek instead I would talk to John Ango to see what his thoughts are, either way my pleasure!
ps I know you prefer red, I'll do some searching to see if I can dig up your preference...
Best - Stan
Nelson Pass said:
I have not even tried an Antek. If they want to
send me one, I will be happy to try it.
(Like all other things: transistors, wire, phono cartridges, and wine.
No additional women, thank you.)
Hi Nelson, yes I would love for you to have a look and to hear your thoughts! If you email me with your shipping address I'll send these two out to you or if you wish to deal w/ Antek instead I would talk to John Ango to see what his thoughts are, either way my pleasure!
ps I know you prefer red, I'll do some searching to see if I can dig up your preference...
Best - Stan
I think giant heatsinks are overrated--my Mini Aleph had giant heatsinks, and I could leave it on all day and it never even got near British adjective hot. And it didn't quite have all the magic it was supposed to have--no change in sound after running for an hour or two...
So I rebuilt it with smaller heatsinks. When I first turn it on, it sounds as before, but after an hour, it gets blimeycreaky hot, and then -- the soundstage expands in all directions....voices turn to liquid -- all grain is completely disssolved -- trailing song reverberates from cathedral ceilings and I can see the up into the rafters of the church where the recording was made.....
or maybe that's just the Tanqeray kicking in....
But I will post some pix of the rebuilt Mini Aleph.
JJ
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