I am continually amazed with the hocus pocus that has inhibited the audio equipment industry, having not indugled myself more in depth to the developments of this sector, the more I look into it the more it is an alchemy type of market. I know the high-end audio products is more art, passion and technology, but some of this is bordering on the absurd.
Take for example solder wires: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring=Solder+and+Flux&content_id=19
I am sure this is a rebadge from large solder manufacturers such as Multicore/Loctite, Alpha or even Kester or AIM. I can't believe people actually think their solder will perform better or give better performance. With the increase use of RoHS(lead-free) solder in Europe it is actually in my opinon a less performing product which any mission critical application would not even consider.
Also, the cabling in the audio sector is another one of those black smithing products and the exhuberant price that they are charging is totally absurd !
What do you gents/ladies really think of all this ?
Take for example solder wires: http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&pagestring=Solder+and+Flux&content_id=19
I am sure this is a rebadge from large solder manufacturers such as Multicore/Loctite, Alpha or even Kester or AIM. I can't believe people actually think their solder will perform better or give better performance. With the increase use of RoHS(lead-free) solder in Europe it is actually in my opinon a less performing product which any mission critical application would not even consider.
Also, the cabling in the audio sector is another one of those black smithing products and the exhuberant price that they are charging is totally absurd !
What do you gents/ladies really think of all this ?
Re: Re: More Hocus Pocus !
Good that most DIYers are no buying into the snake oil salesman.
I did a search on the solder and found alot of misinformation, but most are pretty close to the point. Typically now there are four types of solder being used widely on the market:
1. 63/37 SnPb No Clean
2. 63/37 SnPb Water Soluble
3. SAC305 No Clean (Lead-free)
4. SAC305 Water Soluble
60/40 is rare and is still required for mil-spec contracts for the only reason most have not changed the standards in thier drawings. 60/40 has a plastic stage which is really not ideal, 63/37 eutetic solder with RMA(Rosin Mildly Active) flux is much better.
I still prefer 67/37 no clean with rosin(RMA) flux for the best possible wetting and appearance.
I do not trust lead free solders, there is still not enough data to support performance over 20 years +, this is why military and aerospace industries will not go there, but I have done jobs for AirBus using lead-free due to the European ban on lead products, so who wants to risk everything flying AirBus ?
janneman said:
Good that most DIYers are no buying into the snake oil salesman.
I did a search on the solder and found alot of misinformation, but most are pretty close to the point. Typically now there are four types of solder being used widely on the market:
1. 63/37 SnPb No Clean
2. 63/37 SnPb Water Soluble
3. SAC305 No Clean (Lead-free)
4. SAC305 Water Soluble
60/40 is rare and is still required for mil-spec contracts for the only reason most have not changed the standards in thier drawings. 60/40 has a plastic stage which is really not ideal, 63/37 eutetic solder with RMA(Rosin Mildly Active) flux is much better.
I still prefer 67/37 no clean with rosin(RMA) flux for the best possible wetting and appearance.
I do not trust lead free solders, there is still not enough data to support performance over 20 years +, this is why military and aerospace industries will not go there, but I have done jobs for AirBus using lead-free due to the European ban on lead products, so who wants to risk everything flying AirBus ?
I'll make this algorithm as simple as I can:
1) Hear or read of product/process/etc. claimed to produce benefit
2) Listen to said product/process/etc.
If it makes no difference in the sound, go about your business. Note that the proper response if asked by another is not,"It's absolute BS! I can't believe...yadda, yadda, yadda..." it's, "I tried it and did not hear a difference." Note that the second statement is more intellectually honest, no matter how good it may feel to vent self-righteous wrath like a fire-and-brimstone country preacher out to save his flock from the temptations of Satan and his minions.
If it does make a difference, and assuming it's for the better, then proceed to:
3) Given the asking price of X dollars, do I feel that this is a worthwhile investment?
No one but you can answer that one, and the answer may change at different times during your life, depending on whether the rent is due and the refrigerator is empty, or if you just sold your dot-com startup for a gazillion dollars.
If the change was for the worse, then go on about your business. If asked, respond,"It produced this effect in my system. I didn't care for it."
For some reason, this simple flow chart seems difficult for some people to comprehend. Persons of a certain sort are particularly prone to mixing the "does it do anything?" and "how much does it cost?" questions together in their minds and become greatly agitated--the higher the price, the more they tend to jump to the conclusion that there is no benefit. The only known treatment is sedation until the fit passes. Note that continuted medical supervision is indicated, as relapses are almost certain to occur.
Oh...and if for whatever reason you decided not to try it, the only intellectually honest response if asked is,"I have not tried it."
All else is emotion, no matter how much the speaker pretends otherwise.
There is an old quote something to the effect of, "You have mistaken the strength of your emotion for the force of your logic." Don't fall into that trap.
Grey
EDIT: 60/40 is not rare. It is the only type of solder available in these parts.
1) Hear or read of product/process/etc. claimed to produce benefit
2) Listen to said product/process/etc.
If it makes no difference in the sound, go about your business. Note that the proper response if asked by another is not,"It's absolute BS! I can't believe...yadda, yadda, yadda..." it's, "I tried it and did not hear a difference." Note that the second statement is more intellectually honest, no matter how good it may feel to vent self-righteous wrath like a fire-and-brimstone country preacher out to save his flock from the temptations of Satan and his minions.
If it does make a difference, and assuming it's for the better, then proceed to:
3) Given the asking price of X dollars, do I feel that this is a worthwhile investment?
No one but you can answer that one, and the answer may change at different times during your life, depending on whether the rent is due and the refrigerator is empty, or if you just sold your dot-com startup for a gazillion dollars.
If the change was for the worse, then go on about your business. If asked, respond,"It produced this effect in my system. I didn't care for it."
For some reason, this simple flow chart seems difficult for some people to comprehend. Persons of a certain sort are particularly prone to mixing the "does it do anything?" and "how much does it cost?" questions together in their minds and become greatly agitated--the higher the price, the more they tend to jump to the conclusion that there is no benefit. The only known treatment is sedation until the fit passes. Note that continuted medical supervision is indicated, as relapses are almost certain to occur.
Oh...and if for whatever reason you decided not to try it, the only intellectually honest response if asked is,"I have not tried it."
All else is emotion, no matter how much the speaker pretends otherwise.
There is an old quote something to the effect of, "You have mistaken the strength of your emotion for the force of your logic." Don't fall into that trap.
Grey
EDIT: 60/40 is not rare. It is the only type of solder available in these parts.
EDIT: 60/40 is not rare. It is the only type of solder available in these parts.
Wow, I haven't seen 60/40 for at least 7 years now, I would have to place a special order just to get it. 60/40 is an older formulation than 63/37 and you will notice the benefits of not having a plastic stage. Tin and lead by themselves have a higher melting temperature than 183Deg C, but once they are mixed the melting temperature lowers itself, just one of those fluke of chemistry I guess.
Wow, I haven't seen 60/40 for at least 7 years now, I would have to place a special order just to get it. 60/40 is an older formulation than 63/37 and you will notice the benefits of not having a plastic stage. Tin and lead by themselves have a higher melting temperature than 183Deg C, but once they are mixed the melting temperature lowers itself, just one of those fluke of chemistry I guess.
I just bought solder last week, so this is current information. Here in central South Carolina, there is nothing but 60/40 to be had. Period. They won't even special order anything else. And that's in the capital and largest city of the state, mind you. Indeed, I was all but called a communist by a rather testy fellow at one parts house when I asked if they had anything else. Welcome to the redneck South, where anything that isn't "like my gran'pappy did it" is greeted with utmost squinty-eyed suspicion and hostility.
Those who haven't lived here should try it before commenting that it can't be so. I have long said that living in this corner of the country is like living in a third world nation. They're backwards and quite literally proud of it. The "America, love it or leave it" syndrome--xenophobic, insular, and spoiling for a fight. Sad...very sad.
Not to mention difficult for someone who does not share the mindset.
Or happens to want something other than 60/40 solder.
Grey
Those who haven't lived here should try it before commenting that it can't be so. I have long said that living in this corner of the country is like living in a third world nation. They're backwards and quite literally proud of it. The "America, love it or leave it" syndrome--xenophobic, insular, and spoiling for a fight. Sad...very sad.
Not to mention difficult for someone who does not share the mindset.
Or happens to want something other than 60/40 solder.
Grey
Hmmmm.
Quite frankly, Grey, I'm surprised that someone who has recently posted on the evils of an emotionally-driven narrowness of mind would turn right around and say "...Welcome to the redneck South, where anything that isn't 'like my gran'pappy did it' is greeted with utmost squinty-eyed suspicion and hostility. Those who haven't lived here should try it before commenting that it can't be so. I have long said that living in this corner of the country is like living in a third world nation. They're backwards and quite literally proud of it. The 'America, love it or leave it' syndrome--xenophobic, insular, and spoiling for a fight. Sad...very sad."
Sounds xenophobic, insular and spoiling for a fight. Sad, very sad, y'all.
Quite frankly, Grey, I'm surprised that someone who has recently posted on the evils of an emotionally-driven narrowness of mind would turn right around and say "...Welcome to the redneck South, where anything that isn't 'like my gran'pappy did it' is greeted with utmost squinty-eyed suspicion and hostility. Those who haven't lived here should try it before commenting that it can't be so. I have long said that living in this corner of the country is like living in a third world nation. They're backwards and quite literally proud of it. The 'America, love it or leave it' syndrome--xenophobic, insular, and spoiling for a fight. Sad...very sad."
Sounds xenophobic, insular and spoiling for a fight. Sad, very sad, y'all.
I think a rather honest response in a lot of cases would be, "I do not believe it will work, so I will not spend any of my time trying it."GRollins said:
I think we could all agree, for instance, that taking a picture of your stereo and putting it in the freezer will not improve its sound quality. Of course, I haven't tried it...
But the holy wars about $1K power cords, or similar stuff, remind me of the sports mania that take up so much of some people's emotional lives. Obviously the emotional part of the brain is involved much more than the logical.
the cardas rosin flux in the first link is none other than kester rosin paste for twice the price. I once removed the cardas paper label and could barely make out the kester logo on lid, almost worn away. I wonder if they reason the planning of sticker and time it takes to remove first label makes up for added cost.
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Re: Re: Re: More Hocus Pocus !
You’ve got to be kidding? You obviously haven’t followed many threads around here. While many of the DIY’ers here are firmly grounded in the scientific method, there are also many who believe all the snake oil and woo-woo garbage as it pertains to components and construction of audio equipment.
I’ve seen many examples of ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims similar the following:
“$4.00 film resistors sound much better than $0.05 film resistors. . .”
“Adding Black Gate caps to my sound card opened up the soundstage and improved the bass. . .”
“I can clearly hear an op-amp in a socket and it sounds much worse than one soldered to the board. . .”
“High-quality FET op-amp A sounds mellower and more up front than high-quality FET op-amp B. . .”
“Copper wire sounds terrible and is clearly audible compared to silver wire. . .”
“Silver solder is quieter that regular Pb solder. . .”
“Machined gold RCA connectors sound substantially better than gold plated RCA connectors. . .”
“An LED on the + rail of my power amp adds electrical noise and audible artifacts to the music. . .”
There are many, many more examples all over this place that are equally silly or fantastic. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not attacking anyone and I haven’t performed double-blind listening tests on all of the examples, but from what I know and what I have heard, I can’t duplicate any of these claims. Maybe I’m not a “true audiophile” and I can’t hear a bug fart at fifty-paces, but I do love very clean music and build equipment that is very dependable and performs extremely well. Who knows, maybe I’ll figure things out some day and will get the big picture of DIY-audio.
Cheers,
Paul
EdT said:
You’ve got to be kidding? You obviously haven’t followed many threads around here. While many of the DIY’ers here are firmly grounded in the scientific method, there are also many who believe all the snake oil and woo-woo garbage as it pertains to components and construction of audio equipment.
I’ve seen many examples of ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims similar the following:
“$4.00 film resistors sound much better than $0.05 film resistors. . .”
“Adding Black Gate caps to my sound card opened up the soundstage and improved the bass. . .”
“I can clearly hear an op-amp in a socket and it sounds much worse than one soldered to the board. . .”
“High-quality FET op-amp A sounds mellower and more up front than high-quality FET op-amp B. . .”
“Copper wire sounds terrible and is clearly audible compared to silver wire. . .”
“Silver solder is quieter that regular Pb solder. . .”
“Machined gold RCA connectors sound substantially better than gold plated RCA connectors. . .”
“An LED on the + rail of my power amp adds electrical noise and audible artifacts to the music. . .”
There are many, many more examples all over this place that are equally silly or fantastic. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not attacking anyone and I haven’t performed double-blind listening tests on all of the examples, but from what I know and what I have heard, I can’t duplicate any of these claims. Maybe I’m not a “true audiophile” and I can’t hear a bug fart at fifty-paces, but I do love very clean music and build equipment that is very dependable and performs extremely well. Who knows, maybe I’ll figure things out some day and will get the big picture of DIY-audio.
Cheers,
Paul
T'ain't so black and white. National Semiconductor's opamp development lab falls squarely in the “High-quality FET op-amp A sounds mellower and more up front than high-quality FET op-amp B. . .” camp. The Cardas thing is just plain funny. Maybe it's cryo treated, straight from your grocer's freezer? 
Grey, your post (#7) was the most refreshing response I've read concerning the irrational alchemy of high end sound reproduction.
There are things that make a difference that 'shouldn't', and things that in my experience don't make the difference they should.
As the system gets more 'purified', the ever increasing importance of the ever smaller difference comes into play. Is it worth the money? I wouldn't connect a $65K pair of speakers to a $24K amp with lamp cord, and I wouldn't use pure fine silver vacuum dielectric speaker wire on a boom box. Horses for courses.
Use your ears, and then use what is in between them. Just because something is unexpected or difficult to believe doesn't mean it ain't so. - Marsupialx
There are things that make a difference that 'shouldn't', and things that in my experience don't make the difference they should.
As the system gets more 'purified', the ever increasing importance of the ever smaller difference comes into play. Is it worth the money? I wouldn't connect a $65K pair of speakers to a $24K amp with lamp cord, and I wouldn't use pure fine silver vacuum dielectric speaker wire on a boom box. Horses for courses.
Use your ears, and then use what is in between them. Just because something is unexpected or difficult to believe doesn't mean it ain't so. - Marsupialx
There's some very expensive gear out there. I can understand how someone would put a fancy power cord on something even if they KNOW it doesnt make a difference. It's like putting pressed steel wheels on a GT3 porsche. It works fine, but since you spend so much why not spend a bit more on accessories too.
2% silver solder is around a bit too. I have a very old tektronix CRO that has a warning label inside recommending the use of solder with silver to reduce erosion of the contacts on the ceramic terminal strips. There is a reason for the stuff.
2% silver solder is around a bit too. I have a very old tektronix CRO that has a warning label inside recommending the use of solder with silver to reduce erosion of the contacts on the ceramic terminal strips. There is a reason for the stuff.
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