Black gate caps = religion = humbug? - diyAudio
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:23 PM   #1
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Default Black gate caps = religion = humbug?

Quote:
aluminum oxide, the best dielectric on earth
Is this true?

Quote:
true cathode on the surface of an aluminum oxide dielectric layer and an external cathode. A separator, therefore, is
some of the signal information is lost, and distortion is radiated due to the slowness of ions and non-linearity.
I think we agreed in some other thread that capacitor distortion was rather small compared to other things especially in tube amps.

The current is moving with the speed of light (almost) and the charge carriers are moving in mm's/ sec or so (=slow!) by nature.

I find that many facts are pure "tjurbajs" (=b**********) when it comes to scientific value.

Is Black Gate caps humbug?

I'd prefer if we start with a technical discussion first and then the audiophilic.

http://www.blackgate.jp/ezu1.htm#10
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:27 PM   #2
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Don't we have enough threads open on capacitors?
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:32 PM   #3
dhaen is offline dhaen  Europe
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Maybe we need a "capacitor forum"
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:34 PM   #4
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Yes, caps are very "audiophilic" but Black Gate has cought my interest and I would like to know a little bit more, scientific, because I have a feeling of that they aren't (documented) special at all.
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:36 PM   #5
Philo is offline Philo  United States
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Whether Black Gates are the best, I have really no idea. I do know they sound better than what is put in most consumer electronics these days. I have gone through and replaced many of the caps in my off-the-shelf equipment and the sound is much improved. The improvement is good enough for me for now. I will in the future try other manufacturers in other pieces of equipment, maybe try and get some NOS Cerafines. But to me that is part of the fun of DIY.
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:38 PM   #6
dhaen is offline dhaen  Europe
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OK, there are papers on Black Gate caps. I read them once, but have forgotten enough to need to revise.
Can someone please post a link so we can have a common source of info. Then we can argue out the points.
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Old 19th December 2002, 07:47 PM   #7
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Per, I dunno, I looked at the site you put in your message.

A quick glance: "traditional" cap shown with "separator", Black Gate shown with exactly the same structure, but separator now called "fine carbon particle " or something like that. For all I know, ALL electrolytics could have "fine grain particles". A "traditional" marketing ploy I would say.

Further: they describe with great elegance the "forming" of the cap, this is a process that is inherent to the construction of an electrolytic cap. However, the impression is given that the forming process is unique to BG and therefore leads to great quality. I hesitate to call it misleading because their legal budget surely exceeds mine.

I think I have more interesting things to do than linger on that site, which is so full of text and empty of content. But please, prove me wrong if I am.

Jan Didden
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Old 19th December 2002, 09:15 PM   #8
ALW is offline ALW  United Kingdom
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Default Jan

I'm equally sceptical about the BG claims - 'real' technical data is painfully lacking.

Having said that though, a recent bargain purchase of some large value Cerafine's has surprised me greatly, they use ceramic particles in the electrloyte, and they sound, and measure, better than standard electrolytics .

To my knowledge, carbon is not used in any other capacitor.

I also have some glowingly ecstatic reports from some corespondants I trust who were equally sceptical, but having tried just about everything else have decided to try some Black Gates.

Such is the glowing report they write, I've invested in some myself to see if they really are that good.

I agree it all looks and reads like snake oil, although there's enough tempters in the specs to whet the appetite (look at the impedance trace for a Super-E configuration).

Maybe that's just a way to sell twice as many caps, but I'm less sure know than I was. They are expensive, but not unreasonably so compared to OS-CON's, and I suspect pricing is a bit aspirational, like all consumer HiFi

Will report back later...

Andy.

P.S. Can you email me your adress once again, I've lost it and still have a parcel for you
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Old 19th December 2002, 10:07 PM   #9
SY is offline SY  United States
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Carbon has been used in capacitors for decades. Nothing new. See, for example, those ultra-high value (1 Farad) double layer caps, normally used for power backup.

I looked at that site, too. I want those 5 minutes of my life back.
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Old 19th December 2002, 10:11 PM   #10
jam is offline jam  United States
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Thumbs up About Time!

I was skeptical about Black Gates at first till I tried them. They need a few hours to break in but I think you will be pleased with the results. Too many of us rather take someone's idea or findings to task without first trying them.
Hi-Fi World (for what it is worth) put several capacitors to the test and found that the Black Gates put several highly regarded film caps and an expensive oil filled one to shame.

Jam
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