Is this true?
I think we agreed in some other thread that capacitor distortion was rather small compared to other things especially in tube amps.
The current is moving with the speed of light (almost) and the charge carriers are moving in mm's/ sec or so (=slow!) by nature.
I find that many facts are pure "tjurbajs" (=b**********) when it comes to scientific value.
Is Black Gate caps humbug?
I'd prefer if we start with a technical discussion first and then the audiophilic.
http://www.blackgate.jp/ezu1.htm#10
Whether Black Gates are the best, I have really no idea. I do know they sound better than what is put in most consumer electronics these days. I have gone through and replaced many of the caps in my off-the-shelf equipment and the sound is much improved. The improvement is good enough for me for now. I will in the future try other manufacturers in other pieces of equipment, maybe try and get some NOS Cerafines. But to me that is part of the fun of DIY.
Per, I dunno, I looked at the site you put in your message.
A quick glance: "traditional" cap shown with "separator", Black Gate shown with exactly the same structure, but separator now called "fine carbon particle " or something like that. For all I know, ALL electrolytics could have "fine grain particles". A "traditional" marketing ploy I would say.
Further: they describe with great elegance the "forming" of the cap, this is a process that is inherent to the construction of an electrolytic cap. However, the impression is given that the forming process is unique to BG and therefore leads to great quality. I hesitate to call it misleading because their legal budget surely exceeds mine.
I think I have more interesting things to do than linger on that site, which is so full of text and empty of content. But please, prove me wrong if I am.
Jan Didden
A quick glance: "traditional" cap shown with "separator", Black Gate shown with exactly the same structure, but separator now called "fine carbon particle " or something like that. For all I know, ALL electrolytics could have "fine grain particles". A "traditional" marketing ploy I would say.
Further: they describe with great elegance the "forming" of the cap, this is a process that is inherent to the construction of an electrolytic cap. However, the impression is given that the forming process is unique to BG and therefore leads to great quality. I hesitate to call it misleading because their legal budget surely exceeds mine.
I think I have more interesting things to do than linger on that site, which is so full of text and empty of content. But please, prove me wrong if I am.
Jan Didden
Jan
I'm equally sceptical about the BG claims - 'real' technical data is painfully lacking.
Having said that though, a recent bargain purchase of some large value Cerafine's has surprised me greatly, they use ceramic particles in the electrloyte, and they sound, and measure, better than standard electrolytics .
To my knowledge, carbon is not used in any other capacitor.
I also have some glowingly ecstatic reports from some corespondants I trust who were equally sceptical, but having tried just about everything else have decided to try some Black Gates.
Such is the glowing report they write, I've invested in some myself to see if they really are that good.
I agree it all looks and reads like snake oil, although there's enough tempters in the specs to whet the appetite (look at the impedance trace for a Super-E configuration).
Maybe that's just a way to sell twice as many caps, but I'm less sure know than I was. They are expensive, but not unreasonably so compared to OS-CON's, and I suspect pricing is a bit aspirational, like all consumer HiFi
Will report back later...
Andy.
P.S. Can you email me your adress once again, I've lost it and still have a parcel for you
I'm equally sceptical about the BG claims - 'real' technical data is painfully lacking.
Having said that though, a recent bargain purchase of some large value Cerafine's has surprised me greatly, they use ceramic particles in the electrloyte, and they sound, and measure, better than standard electrolytics .
To my knowledge, carbon is not used in any other capacitor.
I also have some glowingly ecstatic reports from some corespondants I trust who were equally sceptical, but having tried just about everything else have decided to try some Black Gates.
Such is the glowing report they write, I've invested in some myself to see if they really are that good.
I agree it all looks and reads like snake oil, although there's enough tempters in the specs to whet the appetite (look at the impedance trace for a Super-E configuration).
Maybe that's just a way to sell twice as many caps, but I'm less sure know than I was. They are expensive, but not unreasonably so compared to OS-CON's, and I suspect pricing is a bit aspirational, like all consumer HiFi
Will report back later...
Andy.
P.S. Can you email me your adress once again, I've lost it and still have a parcel for you
About Time!
I was skeptical about Black Gates at first till I tried them. They need a few hours to break in but I think you will be pleased with the results. Too many of us rather take someone's idea or findings to task without first trying them.
Hi-Fi World (for what it is worth) put several capacitors to the test and found that the Black Gates put several highly regarded film caps and an expensive oil filled one to shame.
Jam
I was skeptical about Black Gates at first till I tried them. They need a few hours to break in but I think you will be pleased with the results. Too many of us rather take someone's idea or findings to task without first trying them.
Hi-Fi World (for what it is worth) put several capacitors to the test and found that the Black Gates put several highly regarded film caps and an expensive oil filled one to shame.
Jam
Would you say that again slooooowly.
Hi all:
Im a lil’ new at this. I think of current=electrons=charge carriers. The coloumb is the unit of “charge” and is measured by 6.28x10^18 electrons passing a point. I guess this is why I equate current and charge carriers and electrons.
Current drift I think of as slow. Althought the electrons are moving faster. How fast?
The electric field, what ever that is, (photons?) moves close to the speed of light. This seems to be the “charge” and is very mysterious if you ask me. The field passes the signal.
Straighten me out.
Does this stuff matter in DIYaudio? Peranders mentioned it in the context of the sonics of capacitors. Can we draw conclusions about how/if caps effect sound from issues above?
Second Question: Only because I was just reading a thread on another forum. A consensus was that wire can be directional with ac current because, while the current is moving in opposite directions, the Power is being delivered in one direction only. Personally, I am so confused as to how to visualize or think of “Power” that it hurts my head. If you just say IxE that makes sense. But power is something separate too, no? It’s voltage, it’s current, but it moves at the speed of light. I tend to think of Power as a field that is not wire dependant.
Oh Sh**.
Cheers
Craig Ryder
Hi all:
Peranders
Im a lil’ new at this. I think of current=electrons=charge carriers. The coloumb is the unit of “charge” and is measured by 6.28x10^18 electrons passing a point. I guess this is why I equate current and charge carriers and electrons.
Current drift I think of as slow. Althought the electrons are moving faster. How fast?
The electric field, what ever that is, (photons?) moves close to the speed of light. This seems to be the “charge” and is very mysterious if you ask me. The field passes the signal.
Straighten me out.
Does this stuff matter in DIYaudio? Peranders mentioned it in the context of the sonics of capacitors. Can we draw conclusions about how/if caps effect sound from issues above?
Second Question: Only because I was just reading a thread on another forum. A consensus was that wire can be directional with ac current because, while the current is moving in opposite directions, the Power is being delivered in one direction only. Personally, I am so confused as to how to visualize or think of “Power” that it hurts my head. If you just say IxE that makes sense. But power is something separate too, no? It’s voltage, it’s current, but it moves at the speed of light. I tend to think of Power as a field that is not wire dependant.
Oh Sh**.
Cheers
Craig Ryder
Apart from the fact that this thread isn't exactly off the beaten track it also is a repetition of things said before. The title of the thread is provocative as well. Leave the "Black Gate caps" away and an interesting discussion could take place.
I have to get something off my chest: it really is annoying that people are very negative about capacitors ( or other subjects ) that they haven't even tried. It reminds me of a dutch saying which maybe is suitable in english too: the best sailors are ashore.
Some of us build things and try things although they maybe are sceptic about it before they try it. Nevertheless they try to keep an open view on matters and are able to decide for themselves what sounds OK or not. Eventually this can be backed up by measurements if really necessary.
Some others are educated in what is a hobby for us. What I discovered now is that it is often them that are negative beforehand and wait for the others to try things out. IMO this should be the other way around !
Buy some of the damn overpriced BG's, solder them and measure and listen. Than make up your mind and opinion and tell us your results instead of mocking all the time. I couldn't care less what's inside it. Could be Coca Cola for dieelectricum. The marketing has similarities anyhow. If it has an idling time of 30 days, whatever. Most important is : is it good for YOUR ears or not ?
I have to get something off my chest: it really is annoying that people are very negative about capacitors ( or other subjects ) that they haven't even tried. It reminds me of a dutch saying which maybe is suitable in english too: the best sailors are ashore.
Some of us build things and try things although they maybe are sceptic about it before they try it. Nevertheless they try to keep an open view on matters and are able to decide for themselves what sounds OK or not. Eventually this can be backed up by measurements if really necessary.
Some others are educated in what is a hobby for us. What I discovered now is that it is often them that are negative beforehand and wait for the others to try things out. IMO this should be the other way around !
Buy some of the damn overpriced BG's, solder them and measure and listen. Than make up your mind and opinion and tell us your results instead of mocking all the time. I couldn't care less what's inside it. Could be Coca Cola for dieelectricum. The marketing has similarities anyhow. If it has an idling time of 30 days, whatever. Most important is : is it good for YOUR ears or not ?
Jean Paul
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic"
Techies do not like magic. It makes them feel unprofessional.(hehehe)
Likewise, mature technologies turn into mental and technical orthodoxies or straightjackets. The educated (not necessarily clever or smarter) feel the full weight and lose all flexibility. History of science shows a long struggle with this.
Of course it is also true that many uneducated (hobbyists) fall prey to shams of all sorts. (I hear Joel calling)
This creates a certain tension between a heavily laden orthodoxy and pure quackery.
All you can do is try to enjoy it. It's not changin soon.
I'm Dutch myself although my famly has been in the states for three generations.
Cheers
Craig Ryder
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic"
Techies do not like magic. It makes them feel unprofessional.(hehehe)
Likewise, mature technologies turn into mental and technical orthodoxies or straightjackets. The educated (not necessarily clever or smarter) feel the full weight and lose all flexibility. History of science shows a long struggle with this.
Of course it is also true that many uneducated (hobbyists) fall prey to shams of all sorts. (I hear Joel calling)
This creates a certain tension between a heavily laden orthodoxy and pure quackery.
All you can do is try to enjoy it. It's not changin soon.
I'm Dutch myself although my famly has been in the states for three generations.
Cheers
Craig Ryder
OK, Craig but must one not try quackery to discover it is quackery or not ? I once was slightly educated in this stuff but found out there is more than only the wisdom of books. Problem is that it is very time-consuming and I can imagine that some don't want to put their valuable time in trying things. IMO one can not have an opinion if so.
Have to admit I thought the same about the BG's. Overpriced, no docs, hard to find and no real technical explanation apart from some lousy written japanese-english papers. After experiments with some types BG I am convinced of their quality. Something I didn't expect for sure. But it still is fun to find out that a cheap capacitor from brand X sounds nice ( and is cheap too ). For instance BCComponents makes nice quality.
I'm pseudo Dutch!!!
No, I do not speak the language. I grew up in Holland, Michigan. The "Big Event" here is "Tulip Time." I imagine it's kind of a fast food/McDonald's version of Dutch culture. The undergradute school I went too was know as the "Flying Dutchmen." All for naught as you point out. I'm another stinking American.(hehehe)
I do get your sense of frustration with this hobby though.
Cheers,
Craig Ryder
No, I do not speak the language. I grew up in Holland, Michigan. The "Big Event" here is "Tulip Time." I imagine it's kind of a fast food/McDonald's version of Dutch culture. The undergradute school I went too was know as the "Flying Dutchmen." All for naught as you point out. I'm another stinking American.(hehehe)
I do get your sense of frustration with this hobby though.
Cheers,
Craig Ryder
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.