Black gate caps = religion = humbug?

[Elso Kwak]

Boutique Parts

OK, Per-Anders but the C of cost has a big influence too.

I always wonder why it is so difficult to obtain good caps while Sony and other brands use them. Good Elna's, Rubycon's, Panasonic's and United Chemicon's are hard to find and I can't imagine they are not imported bigscale to Europe.

Hi Jean-Paul,
It is not that hard to find these parts.
In our country www.degroef.nl has Blackgates.
They ship by postal order.
Michael Percy has a large selection of all kinds of boutique parts:
Solen, Hofland, Blackgate, Nichicon etc. etc.
www.percyaudio.com
Michael Percy ships worldwide and you can pay with pay-pal.
In the USA there are numerous firms specialised in boutique parts, like Partsconnection, Welbournelabs etc. etc.
I once ordered some parts from Michael and all went very smoothly.
See also the sponsorpage of the AudioAsylum for firms and links to there homepages:
http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

 

[Werner]

cheap Rubycon ZL/ZA

Maplin www.maplin.co.uk are presently
liquidating their stocks of Rubycon ZL and
ZA at silly prices.

You have to press the "order this item" button
(or whatever it is) to see the new discount
prices.

 

[jean-paul]

Hi Elso, I checked prices at www.degroef.nl and my statement holds true:

Now they are only sold for too high prices in special audioshops and a strange mystique hangs around them.

The tip from Werner to look at Maplin's is an interesting one. Very cheap and good specs too. But man can not live by specs alone.
Has anyone experience with these types ( ZA and ZL ) ? They are extremely low ESR types ( 105 C for switching PSU's ) which most of the time does not work out in audio ( low ESR is OK, but extremely low mostly isn't ). I sure want to buy some and test them but some info on them is always good. How do they compare to BG ?

 

[peranders]

Has anyone experience with these types ( ZA and ZL ) ? They are extremely low ESR types ( 105 C for switching PSU's ) which most of the time does not work out in audio ( low ESR is OK, but extremely low mostly isn't ). I sure want to buy some and test them but some info on them is always good. How do they compare to BG ?

ESR is a bad thing when it comes to current capability and lifetime. Low ESR is good and these types have extra good high frequency properties and normallly it's a good thing when a cap is a cap and not an inductor.

 

[jean-paul]

Per-Anders, please reread the reply I gave cause I sure wasn't saying a capacitor should behave like an inductor. The point is extremely low ESR can give troubles one doesn't expect. As I found out myself using OScon's on the wrong places.

And see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7265&perpage=15&highlight=ESR&pagenumber=8

Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators. You don't seem to believe me so please read it

 

[ALW]

Werner

I love you

I use ZA's by the bucket-load in my regulators, and think they are marvellous.

I've not tried them in signal-path apps, but as PSU decoupling there's little better.

Those Maplin prices make me cry - I've been paying a fortune (relatively) for them.

Better get in quick guys, I feel a BIG order coming on...

Andy.

 

[peranders]

Per-Anders, please reread the reply I gave cause I sure wasn't saying a capacitor should behave like an inductor. The point is extremely low ESR can give troubles one doesn't expect. As I found out myself using OScon's on the wrong places.

And see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7265&perpage=15&highlight=ESR&pagenumber=8

Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators. You don't seem to believe me so please read it

I'm aware that you just can't pick up a component I hope for the best. When it's possible you must make measurents also. Good test signal is square wave. You can also get non-wanted phenomina when you parallel connect caps of different kinds. Linear Tech had a good application note about this.

 

[fdegrove]

AH.

Hi,

Thanks J-P.


I had not read the whole thread but Jan confirms what I sometimes hint at in the tubes section as wel.

Especially the respected Jan Didden gives a good explanation of the problems that may arise using low ESR caps in combination with LDO regulators.

I see audiophiles spending a small fortune on MKP and other fancy caps just to filter ripple in the PSU.
When I then tell them that these caps are too good for that they then look at you as if you're retarded.
Their reasoning is of course that the best cap (for coupling) surely is good enough for anything else?

It just ain't so.

Better spend your money on a good regulator IMO.

Cheers,

 

[peranders]

Re: AH.

Their reasoning is of course that the best cap (for coupling) surely is good enough for anything else?

It just ain't so.

Better spend your money on a good regulator IMO.

It doesn't hurt if you have knowledge about the electrical properties before the audiophilic takes over.

I'm thinking of when people choose digital circuits or ultra fast opamps. Some of these parts aren't suitable for anything else than pcb's with groundplane, SMD etc.

 

[peranders]

The thread subject was really hot. 1000 views in a short time. Calling Black Gate for humbug was very effective in order to get attention.

Edit: 1015 views when I was finished writing!

Edit 2: 1029 and the counter is running.....

 

[fdegrove]

HOT HOT HOT

Hi,

Calling Black Gate for humbug was very effective in order to get attention.

May I suggest a marketing career at BG for you?


Cheers,

 

[Peter Daniel]

That's what I found on BG. It is from Herb Reichert (Audio Note) and his article on 300B amp which appeared in Sound Practices.

 

[fdegrove]

IF YOU DON'T MIND

Hi Peter,

That article rings a bell.
You won't happen to have an issue #/year for that?
I just want to reread it again entirely.

See...I do ask for something....occasionally.

Ta,

 

[peranders]

Re: HOT HOT HOT

May I suggest a marketing career at BG for you?

Why not? I have gone the sell course, what more do I need?

 

[Elso Kwak]

Prices

Hi Jean-Paul,
Quote:
<B><I>Now they are only sold for too high prices in special audioshops and a strange mystique hangs around them.</B></I>

I absolutely agree with you and I very seldom buy these caps in boutique shops.
I only have experience with Audyn PLUS caps and quite recently abandoned these as I did not like the slightly metallic sound quality.
Yes I know these should be <B><I>"burned in"</B></I> but after several weeks I lost my patience: <B>OUT</B> with these things, they never come in! PERIOD.

 

[Peter Daniel]

Re: IF YOU DON'T MIND

Hi Peter,

That article rings a bell.
You won't happen to have an issue #/year for that?
I just want to reread it again entirely.

I downloaded it in 11/17/96 from either Angela or Sound Practices site. I was trying to find it recently, but couldn't. I still have a print out. I just posted more here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=99511#post99511

If there is a greater demand I could post the whole article. When I was reading it I almost got hooked on 300B amp and wanted to build it. Yet those parts were so expensive that i delayed the project.

 

[fdegrove]

SP

Hi,

Thanks Peter.

I just found the issue:

Sound Practices Vol.2:4 Issue 8 Winter 94/95 pages 24-26.

Cheers,

 

[Peter Daniel]

Is it available on line as well?

 

[fdegrove]

HAVEN'T CHECKED THAT YET

Hi,

No,that's just one of my own issues.

Unfortunately I don't have scanner here.
But if no one else volunteers I'll find some way to get it done if interest builds up.

Cheers,

 

[fdegrove]

FOR OUR PETER.

Peter,

Here you have the online version:

FLESH AND BLOOD

Cheers,