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Old 2nd January 2003, 09:15 AM   #91
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
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I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy. Granted, most components have colorations, but with many standard industrial components, the colorations are simple enough to be put to good use somehow or at least dealt with in an inoffensive manner. With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely.

Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.

But I fully understand that these choices have a lot to do with personal preference, and finding colorations that are complementary to the sounds of your circuits. In the end, you must listen for yourself and make up your own mind.

regards, jonathan carr
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Old 2nd January 2003, 09:52 AM   #92
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This has been an interesting thread that I've started. The "humbug?" in the title is hanging around the corner all the time. My strongest reaction was when I read some facts. -174 dB distortion and claiming that is true. This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. Some other scientific facts seems to be taken from thin air. I have some problems when strict facts are obviously false. I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get.
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Old 2nd January 2003, 10:06 AM   #93
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Quote:
This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment.
You are right, it is humbug. I strongly advise you to never use them. It is not your religion. I'm curious what your reaction would be if one wrote this about the gear you produce.

Per-Anders audio = Religion = Humbug ?

You see what I mean ?

Quote:
I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get.
What needs to be proven ? You want a scientific explanation of good sound or what ?. Or do you want to know ESR facts of BG ? WHAT do you want ?

You should talk once with a tubeguy that uses PIO caps. They are not my cup of tea but listen to them...
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Old 2nd January 2003, 11:06 AM   #94
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You know, I'm against false marketing. In Europe and in Sweden particular we have a thing called "producer responsibility". You must state facts arounds your product which are "facts" otherwise you must tell the costumer that it's NOT facts. Compare with "health food".

Seriously, do you believe in -174 dB distortion? Don't think so. (= false)

BG can say whatever they want as long as they not claim the scientific thing. Some statements are a little but obscure and/or fantastic, don't you think?
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Old 2nd January 2003, 11:09 AM   #95
Bobken is offline Bobken  United Kingdom
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Default Speaking in the dark!

Quote:
Originally posted by peranders
This has been an interesting thread that I've started. The "humbug?" in the title is hanging around the corner all the time. My strongest reaction was when I read some facts. -174 dB distortion and claiming that is true. This is pure humbug unless they show the equipment. Some other scientific facts seems to be taken from thin air. I have some problems when strict facts are obviously false. I don't doubt that BG can be good but proven facts seems to be hard to get.

Hi peranders,

This comment is, with respect, typical of those posters who I have criticised elsewhere.

If you will kindly take the trouble to look at the reference I related earlier on, and in particular to pages 50A & 50B, you will see that the test equipment *is* described, and there is even a (rather poor) picture of it!

Like you, I also "have problems", but it is with posters who state or imply that certain information is unavailable when I have already gone to the trouble to post a source for it on the Forum, and those 'commentators' cannot be bothered to read it.

From memory, I believe there are also some more details in those white papers about the Danish CLT-1 test set up, but I will not waste the time in looking them up for someone who is too lazy to do that for himself!
Certainly I have seen some better details of this test gear somewhere, and a better photograph (for what it is worth).

As I also said before, whether one can believe *all* of Jelmax's claims or not is another matter (they are trying to promote sales-after all!) but for pity's sake, stop posting such inaccurate rubbish until you have actually read the details, and perhaps actually listened to a BG cap!

Until you have done either (or both) of these things, any further ( inaccurate and totally misleading) input along these same lines to this thread is valueless, whoever is making the comments and whoever started it!

Regards,
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Old 2nd January 2003, 12:36 PM   #96
Bobken is offline Bobken  United Kingdom
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jcarr
[B]I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.
With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely.

Therefore, in general, I much prefer to ask non-audiophile parts manufacturers to make parts to my specifications than use audiophile parts.


Hi Jonathan,

You will have seen from my posts on this topic, that I am almost in entire agreement with what you say. The one departure being over the 'strength' of BGs colourations, and, if, as you suggest, Jelmax (or whoever) have made the sound deliberately coloured, I reckon they have made a pretty good job of it!

As I said, I would avoid *all* electrolytics if possible as even the BGs are far from perfect, but they are the best I have tried, and I don't find the colouration particularly strong when tested against a straight wire.
However this pre-supposes two things (which I thought I had made clear, but maybe not), that they are the non-polar series, and that they have had adequate burn-in time.

Incidentally, Jelmax's suggested 'Super E' configuration sounds better, but nowhere near by a factor of two as is the resultant cost!

Most frustratingly, I found that (unlike any other components I have ever carefully listened to) these BGs exibit some most extraordinary characteristics during burn-in, and Jelmax's caveat over what they describe as the 'idling' process (as opposed to burn-in, which they appear to differentiate from, in using this term) is well taken by me.

During initial burn-in and for several days, they undergo a most unpleasant series of changes (which are quite consistent each time) during which time they swing from being thin to bloated etc., and I have noticed overall (but less obvious changes) for several months after installation.

The first time I experienced this, I was ready to remove them as at one point the sound was so bad that I almost believed that something more serious had gone wrong. However, luckily, it was not convenient to take them out immediately (I have a life outside of audio, although my wife and friends don't think so!) and by the time several more days had elapsed, I was pleased with what I then heard.

On another later occasion, when I had fully BG'd an older tuner of mine which had been optimised by 'listening' to all other components over a period of some two years in total, but which had not otherwise been changed for some time, I found improvements over a period of about three months or longer.

I cannot categorically state that this protracted improvement was due to further burning in of the installed BGs, but I am very familiar with the sound of this tuner, and, as I said, nothing else had been modified for at least a year before, so I believe this was the most likely cause of this further slight improvement.


After the initial two/three weeks, the tuner settled down well, and I enjoyed the added detail and smoothness etc., but (unlike with most other components) it continued to sound sweeter and clearer by a very small margin each week, for at least three months.

Needless to say, all of my equipment is left on 24/7, unless I am actually doing some work on it, and this always makes a difference, irrespective of whichever electronic components I have used, universally.

I therefore wonder if, especially with such a ridiculous burn-in time which cannot be at all helpful in the manufacturing of audio gear, your trials really did the BGs justice.

Finally, most of us DIYers don't have the advantages of ordering 'specials' like you, and so have to put up with what we can get hold of reasonably easily, of course.

However, if you have some electrolytics which are better in performance than the dreaded BGs, I would dearly like to try some of them!

Have you thought about, or would you ever consider, selling any of these 'Connoiseur' caps?

Regards,
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Old 2nd January 2003, 01:19 PM   #97
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Default BG Sonics ? ......

"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."

Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted ), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".

Eric.

Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?.
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Old 2nd January 2003, 01:33 PM   #98
Bobken is offline Bobken  United Kingdom
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Default Re: BG Sonics ? ......

Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
"I've tried various BGs, and after getting over the impressiveness of their sound, have come to the conclusion that they were deliberately colored in a manner calculated to tickle most audiophile's fancy.................With many audiophile parts (including the BGs), I find that the colorations are so strong and complex that it is better to avoid them entirely."

Jonathan, can you describe the sort of BG colouration that you are speaking of ? - I have no experience of them (too tight fisted ), so I am keen to hear a manufacturer production sonics and economics view of them.
I understand that different manufacturers and models of electrolytics sound different, some nasty and some reasonably acceptable.
The essentially distortionless performance of BG claimed by the makers ought to approach that of a piece of wire one should think, and not add colourations that you allude to.
I expect that adding finely divided carbon into the elctrolyte mix will significantly alter and 'naturalise' through coupled sound, and attenuate natural sounds when used in signal shunting applications.
What do you mean by "strong and complex".

Eric.

Is it possible to measure distortions as low as -174 dB ?, and if so, how so ?.
Eric,

Hi Eric,

Also see my posts on this, and in particular the reference to the test gear supposedly used.

I am not adding any credance to the methodology of the Jelmax tests, incidentally, nor to its apparent results.

I am simply saying that it is there for everyone to read, and I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs!

Regards,
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Old 2nd January 2003, 01:53 PM   #99
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Default 'Why' Do You Like BG NP ?......

" I, for one, very much like the 'sonic' attributes of the non-polar (especially) BGs! "

More info please - what sonics are you observing ?.

Eric.
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Old 2nd January 2003, 02:02 PM   #100
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My experience with BG-NX Hi Q is that their sonics are better than MKP and the like. Only the ridiculous long idling period is tedious.
They sound neutral and add nothing negative to the sound is the best I can say about them. They have the very negative aspect of the high price. I have only one value in stock for digital ( 6,3 V ) electronics but I couldn't resist trying them as coupling cap with low DC levels and low AC levels.They had proven their value in DAC's already I want to add. In digital they were better by a vast margin than OSCON and Panasonic HFQ.
It opened my eyes and I still am hoping there will be a salespoint in the Netherlands that will sell them for "normal" prices.
Unfortunately these components are very interesting for audioshops. They don't take volume and give great revenue.
And...once you have tried them you are hooked. Despite their price you will buy them again because you simply know there is nothing really better.
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