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Old 22nd December 2009, 04:19 AM   #231
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sencore LCR meter... LC110 i think
it allows you to make capacitance measurements with an applied voltage. Sanken spec sheets have the junction capacitances listed with 10V applied
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Old 22nd December 2009, 10:15 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejed613 View Post
the company i work for has decided to hire a testing facility that specializes in counterfeit detection. there are a lot of methods the facility uses to detect counterfeits.
1. X-ray machines to look inside the device without having to break it apart, and even look at the emitter pattern of the die.
2. transistor curve tracers which can even identify what transistor used to make a fake might have been originally
3. accurate dimensional measurements including the flatness of the heat sink tab.
4 capacitance measurements (this is currently one of the methods i use)
5. mold marks and printing (also one of the methods i currently use.
6 materials testing. are the fakes made with different materials than the original?

the biggest part of solving the problem has been to identify the sources of the fakes, bypass the processes that allow these sources to provide certain components and order the devices directly from the manufacturer of the equipment. so far, so good, but there's a steep learning curve for management, because nobody in the company has ever identified this problem before, and nobody wants to admit that an 800lb gorilla is regularly getting poked in the eye.
By this thread is to see a curve tracer concept:
DIY Curve Tracer for PC
If it is possible to implement a appropriate software to get the p-Spice parameters about this curves, then there are a good precondition to find out the quality standart and further more realistic simulation results. Additional I have a good tool to check the values of the manufacturer if he publishes it.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 12:30 PM   #233
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some of the transistors in question have Vce ratings of up to 300V, and Ic ratings of up to 20A (Id for some FETs go up to 60 or 80A or more). and don't forget that for PNP and P-channel devices, these are negative values. so a curve tracer that can do that isn't a simple piece of equipment.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 01:15 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halfgaar View Post
The first one is the one I got today (the suspected fake), which has a silver front, which the other three don't have.
It's real and Philips. I have the same package but BC560C.
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Old 25th December 2009, 01:51 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by pliedtka View Post
To Wojtek,
Wojciech, they're OK, I think - real TOSHIBA'S, mine looked just like yours. I also bought some MJE15030/31, 340,350 SC5200/SA1943, etc. The place in Toronto area is called Global Electronics Supplies Inc. and to me they sell the real stuff.
maybe too late, but thx for the ansfer
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Old 13th January 2010, 01:32 AM   #236
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i just discovered something today about the font Sanken uses on their parts. it has to do with the curvature of the hook and the loop of the 6 and 9, the curvature on the leading edge of the 2, and the hook on the 1. study them carefully, and you will see the font used by Sanken is quite unique. the loop of the 5 is unique as well, but not as obvious. i haven't seen a 4 or a 7 yet, and the 3, 8, and 0 are not unique.



another thought i had while mulling over the counterfeit problem, is that (and i want to run this idea by everybody here, so i may also start a thread about it) is that one simple method that might be able to non-destructively detect fakes, might to be to find it's Early Effect voltage. so my question about this would be "is it reasonably safe to assume that even with variations within the limits of a particular part number's range of parameters, that the Early voltage remains fairly constant?". or will the Early voltage vary radically between samples of a particular transistor that has an 8:1 acceptable range of beta according to the data sheet? if the Early voltage is reasonably constant within normal device-to-device variations within a part number's normal range, then a counterfeit would most likely be very far from the target range of an original, because of differences in die structure and size. that's my idea at least, if it's not workable please tell me so. i was thinking of a test setup with a couple of preset constant current sources to establish base current and a variable voltage power supply. the setup would check a short series of data points of Ic vs Vce, and use a simple calculation to derive the Early voltage.(or graphic extrapolation of Va?)
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Old 13th January 2010, 09:49 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejed613 View Post
i just discovered something today about the font Sanken uses on their parts. it has to do with the curvature of the hook and the loop of the 6 and 9, the curvature on the leading edge of the 2, and the hook on the 1. study them carefully, and you will see the font used by Sanken is quite unique. the loop of the 5 is unique as well, but not as obvious. i haven't seen a 4 or a 7 yet, and the 3, 8, and 0 are not unique.
I don't understand this - especially the follow:
"font Sanken uses on their parts"
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Old 13th January 2010, 12:12 PM   #238
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if you look at genuine sanken parts, their print font has some unique characteristics that set it apart from the printing used on counterfeits, namely the shapes of some of the digits. i thought what i said was clear enough, maybe it doesn't translate well...
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Old 13th January 2010, 02:29 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejed613 View Post
if you look at genuine sanken parts, their print font has some unique characteristics that set it apart from the printing used on counterfeits, namely the shapes of some of the digits. i thought what i said was clear enough, maybe it doesn't translate well...
now I understand - you mean the kind of labeling resp. lettering like the two different versions as show in the attachement from
Counterfeit Transistors
This is one of the features. But please note, there are more than one company, that make copies. Surely even those where no differences to an original Sanken are visible in the front label.
I have heard, Sanken is a franchise partner from Semelab/Magnatec
Magnatec. Power System Semiconductors
Therefore I would ask there for a trusted distributor; I think that's the only way for maximum security.
Another way would be to create p-spice parameters (only early effect isn't enough - so I think) with help of curve tracer and pc based analyse system. But in the moment nobody can do this.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sanken Fake and Genuine.pdf (79.7 KB, 108 views)

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 13th January 2010 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 13th January 2010, 03:21 PM   #240
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peranders View Post
It's real and Philips. I have the same package but BC560C.
Aren't those 'silver front' Philips TO-92's the ones that go 'cbe' instead of 'ebc'?
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