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Old 19th March 2017, 05:54 PM   #301
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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This is exactly my own find in relation to the ARS & FRS !

Agree 100 % § But I just tried at dc outputt in serie. and what you say is also matching my expériences in Power position in electronic stuffs (pre, amp, and DAcs).
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:55 AM   #302
Tweet is offline Tweet  Australia
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If by chance ESR is the potential problem that is affecting the 'sound quality' of audio capacitors, then it is possible to alleviate the problem by using multiple capacitors of the same manufactured quality, in parallel, to make up the target value used in the crossover.

By way of explanation, if we have a target value for a capacitor in a crossover of 33uf then that can be made up of 10 x 3.3 uf capacitors in parallel, The effect of this is that although the capacitance is added to the correct value, the ESR of each capacitor is paralleled to the next and the next and so on.
In this case, the total ESR will be the ESR of a single 3.3 uf capacitor divided by 10.
What this means by paralleling one effectively increases the conductive surface area over that of a single 33uF capacitor, thus the ESR of the parallel combination is much less constricting to current flow than a single large capacitor of similar value.
Of course there is a price to be paid for all this, and that is bulk and the total cost of the individual capacitors paralleled as against that of a single large capacitor. But if ESR is what is producing a tonal difference with capacitors then this should make a difference.

C.M
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:13 PM   #303
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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ESR is one of the factor, even not sure it is the most important (for instance Polystyren or Teflon are not always the best choice = ! It is from an engineering point of view but as it's a whole thing than a hifi system, more than often such data is not enough for the choice (idem in electronics devices : amp, dac, etc) !

I surmise also than // capacitor has also an effect on the dissipation factor too which plays on the sound and indeed dissipation has also to see with ESR !

As Andrew pointed out the behavior of a capictor is "harder" to understand (I sumarize with my words and my limited knowledge here !) in a filter !

As the signal is passing in many active & passive devices, the last caps stay a choice to try for a compensation to 'tailor" the sound (that's why the best datas don't worch each time, because it's about aethetic ! We all know sometimes than nice distorsion is nicer to listen to than a clean thin sound for instance !)

Well Nothing new but the price of the expensive audio caps ! MiniDSP and likes have a good future in front of them if the manufacters continue to make so huge margins (and don't tell me than the audiophil market is reducing ! Since Internet there are more diyers than ever )

Sorry for the non technical OT point of view btw ! Not usefull to the discussion ! I still enjoy reading T Gee despite I take it by experience with a grain of salt ! All is about the good choice in each PARTICULAR circuit ...
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:00 PM   #304
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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The reactive nature of a capacitor in response to driving amplifier is possible the biggest factor, I have not seen much study in this area. Line level signal related application have different issues.


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Old 20th March 2017, 08:06 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweet View Post
If by chance ESR is the potential problem that is affecting the 'sound quality' of audio capacitors, then it is possible to alleviate the problem by using multiple capacitors of the same manufactured quality, in parallel, to make up the target value used in the crossover.

By way of explanation, if we have a target value for a capacitor in a crossover of 33uf then that can be made up of 10 x 3.3 uf capacitors in parallel, The effect of this is that although the capacitance is added to the correct value, the ESR of each capacitor is paralleled to the next and the next and so on.
In this case, the total ESR will be the ESR of a single 3.3 uf capacitor divided by 10.
What this means by paralleling one effectively increases the conductive surface area over that of a single 33uF capacitor, thus the ESR of the parallel combination is much less constricting to current flow than a single large capacitor of similar value.
Of course there is a price to be paid for all this, and that is bulk and the total cost of the individual capacitors paralleled as against that of a single large capacitor. But if ESR is what is producing a tonal difference with capacitors then this should make a difference.

C.M
Peter Snell used bundles of NPE caps in his early designs. For example, if he wanted a 16uF cap, he'd bundle four 4uF caps. My guess is he stocked many 4uF caps and used them in different combinations to get the value he wanted. Below is a close up of just one bundle in a Model A speaker crossover. Note the small PET 'drop' cap (bypass?) located at the bottom of the bundle in the picture to help anchor the hot melt glued bundle to the particle board xover board.
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:18 AM   #306
FSHZ42 is online now FSHZ42  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakerdoctor View Post
Peter Snell used bundles of NPE caps in his early designs. For example, if he wanted a 16uF cap, he'd bundle four 4uF caps. My guess is he stocked many 4uF caps and used them in different combinations to get the value he wanted. Below is a close up of just one bundle in a Model A speaker crossover. Note the small PET 'drop' cap (bypass?) located at the bottom of the bundle in the picture to help anchor the hot melt glued bundle to the particle board xover board.
This may be fine if all the caps were the same value and type. But from what I have heard that mixing the same type/brand of caps with different values, could cause problems such as a phase shift. So for an example, if you wanted to get a 22uF value and used (2) 10uF caps paralleled with a 2uF, this would cause issues and a phase shift. Please correct me if I'm incorrect about this!

I wanted to try the caps that soongsc commented on using the CDE caps with the Vishay MKP1837 bypass cap. One of the values I would need for a tweeter would be a 15uF cap. CDE doesn't offer that value so I would have to use say (3) 4.7uF to get 14.1uF. I still need .9uF to get the correct value, so I could add a 1.0uF and also a .1uF for bypass and get 15.2uF which should be ok? By using this 1uF and .1uF in combination with the (3) 4.7uF caps in parallel, wouldn't I get a phase shift or have issues?

Last edited by FSHZ42; 21st March 2017 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 05:27 AM   #307
Tweet is offline Tweet  Australia
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Originally Posted by FSHZ42 View Post
This may be fine if all the caps were the same value and type. But from what I have heard that mixing the same type/brand of caps with different values, could cause problems such as a phase shift. So for an example, if you wanted to get a 22uF value and used (2) 10uF caps paralleled with a 2uF, this would cause issues and a phase shift. Please correct me if I'm incorrect about this!

I wanted to try the caps that soongsc commented on using the CDE caps with the Vishay MKP1837 bypass cap. One of the values I would need for a tweeter would be a 15uF cap. CDE doesn't offer that value so I would have to use say (3) 4.7uF to get 14.1uF. I still need .9uF to get the correct value, so I could add a 1.0uF and also a .1uF for bypass and get 15.2uF which should be ok? By using this 1uF and .1uF in combination with the (3) 4.7uF caps in parallel, wouldn't I get a phase shift or have issues?
Short answer is No.
'Phase shift' is a shift in time. (Signal reversal .....is not 'Phase shift'.)

Any paralleled value of pure capacitance can be added together as a whole without there being any phase shift between capacitors. Any resistance introduced however will produce a slight phase shift, which by its nature is inaudible unless a substantial change in amplitude of the signal occurs as it passes through the combination of capacitors.
The phase shift introduced by ESR is negligible at low frequencies where the capacitive reactance of the capacitor is very high, but as the frequency rises to a point where the capacitive reactance becomes low and comparable to that of ESR the phase shift is changed significantly.

Whether this change in phase is audible is debateable, generally accepted as 'No', but as the capacitance reactance (Xc) is now low at this high frequency a small value of voltage is now dropped across the ESR of the capacitor and this may become audible if the ESR is particularly high. This is all highly subjective.......thus the arguments. So it is likely that the audible differences between capacitors is likely to occur at high frequencies, if at all, but that will depend on the subjective experience of the listener, their hearing and the capacitor types used.

Now the combined value ofthe ESR of paralleled capacitors of the same make but of different values will be much less than that of a single capacitor of the same totaled value. It works with the same formula as with parallel resistors .

So a lower ESR is much preferred over that of a higher one simply because of the slightly lower attenuation at high frequencies, particularly when working into a low impedance load such as a tweeter, or an upper midrange.

C,M

Last edited by Tweet; 21st March 2017 at 05:40 AM.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:46 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSHZ42 View Post
This may be fine if all the caps were the same value and type. But from what I have heard that mixing the same type/brand of caps with different values, could cause problems such as a phase shift. So for an example, if you wanted to get a 22uF value and used (2) 10uF caps paralleled with a 2uF, this would cause issues and a phase shift. Please correct me if I'm incorrect about this!

I wanted to try the caps that soongsc commented on using the CDE caps with the Vishay MKP1837 bypass cap. One of the values I would need for a tweeter would be a 15uF cap. CDE doesn't offer that value so I would have to use say (3) 4.7uF to get 14.1uF. I still need .9uF to get the correct value, so I could add a 1.0uF and also a .1uF for bypass and get 15.2uF which should be ok? By using this 1uF and .1uF in combination with the (3) 4.7uF caps in parallel, wouldn't I get a phase shift or have issues?
What kind of phase shifts are you referring to? electrical or, acoustical?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 01:47 PM   #309
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Default Tony Gee's Capacitor page updated..

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSHZ42 View Post
This may be fine if all the caps were the same value and type. But from what I have heard that mixing the same type/brand of caps with different values, could cause problems such as a phase shift. So for an example, if you wanted to get a 22uF value and used (2) 10uF caps paralleled with a 2uF, this would cause issues and a phase shift. Please correct me if I'm incorrect about this!



I wanted to try the caps that soongsc commented on using the CDE caps with the Vishay MKP1837 bypass cap. One of the values I would need for a tweeter would be a 15uF cap. CDE doesn't offer that value so I would have to use say (3) 4.7uF to get 14.1uF. I still need .9uF to get the correct value, so I could add a 1.0uF and also a .1uF for bypass and get 15.2uF which should be ok? By using this 1uF and .1uF in combination with the (3) 4.7uF caps in parallel, wouldn't I get a phase shift or have issues?
In Taiwan, they have 15uF
http://www.yoson.com/yoson/index.php...roduct_id=8510

https://m.ruten.com.tw/goods/show.php?g=21507490209986

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Last edited by soongsc; 22nd March 2017 at 01:51 PM.
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Old Today, 10:20 AM   #310
FSHZ42 is online now FSHZ42  United States
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Originally Posted by speakerdoctor View Post
What kind of phase shifts are you referring to? electrical or, acoustical?
Not really sure as I was told this by a friend that designs tube amps and other electronic audio components!
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