I think I am going to go with the speaker wire from foil.... That truely sounds like a wise thing to use. I think that might just be my taste!
Interconnects I might just stick with copper, as I can afford it... However what do I want to use? The cardas IC stuff is still appealing with it's small shield, but that DH labs stuff looks nice too... I just was thinking it might be easier to get a shipment from DIYcable because I live in the U.S.
As far as inside the amplifier.... I am using cardas hookup wire. I have an 800 degree soldering iron but with point tips. What I think I am going to do is buy a desoldering tool. You can just melt some solder into the tip, then place the end of the wire into it for 20-30 seconds and it will be ready and tinned.
Signal wire inside the amplifier.... Vampire cast is appealing beucase I like copper, copper seems to bring a sound I like... However as more than one person has mentioned it can sound a little more harsh. I actually like a little harsh, I have zero desire to ever add tubes.
Here is an idea however.... Vampire cast signal wire for the negative/ground what ever you like to call it, and insulated silver wire for the signal? I think that might give the silver a small enough boost to where as I would like it from being overally smooth, and yet hold it's good audio holding qualities, while not making it aparantly soft for a tube only situation.
I think the DIYcables Belden power cable looks fine, it is not shielded but it looks of nice quality. I have used different 14awg stuff and I think the belden might be a little better, the insulation and copper seems to be nicer than industrial stuff. Yes I believe power cords and sockets make a noticable difference. Do I think a powercord at $80 a foot will really sound better than any thing else? Well perhaps not, but the uber shielding, durability, etc, is not to be argued with as being better, it just is not worth it to about any one.
Oxygen free copper is not as big of a joke as you think... When copper has oxidation it can hurt signal, as it happens on the outside of copper, and that is where the signal is traveling.
You guys might think some of this is funny but.... I however not in the least think so at all. I have good hearing and the improvements in sound from cables and connectors is one of my absolute favorite improvement ways. I am not all about "smooth" all the time.... I want to hear every thing, and more detail is where it is at, and it is hugely in connectors and wire.
I actaully dislike some pretty spendy stuff with cables that cost a thousand a pop. Sure they sound smooth, the soundstage might be good, may not be, and they reveal good recordings from bad... I however may not like them. I really enjoy detail I guess is what I am saying. I also believe detail is not inherently huge depedency on the speakers, they are the weakest link for detail. That is my opinion. I think speakers are far from the weakest link for detail.
Thanks for the replies.
Interconnects I might just stick with copper, as I can afford it... However what do I want to use? The cardas IC stuff is still appealing with it's small shield, but that DH labs stuff looks nice too... I just was thinking it might be easier to get a shipment from DIYcable because I live in the U.S.
As far as inside the amplifier.... I am using cardas hookup wire. I have an 800 degree soldering iron but with point tips. What I think I am going to do is buy a desoldering tool. You can just melt some solder into the tip, then place the end of the wire into it for 20-30 seconds and it will be ready and tinned.
Signal wire inside the amplifier.... Vampire cast is appealing beucase I like copper, copper seems to bring a sound I like... However as more than one person has mentioned it can sound a little more harsh. I actually like a little harsh, I have zero desire to ever add tubes.
Here is an idea however.... Vampire cast signal wire for the negative/ground what ever you like to call it, and insulated silver wire for the signal? I think that might give the silver a small enough boost to where as I would like it from being overally smooth, and yet hold it's good audio holding qualities, while not making it aparantly soft for a tube only situation.
I think the DIYcables Belden power cable looks fine, it is not shielded but it looks of nice quality. I have used different 14awg stuff and I think the belden might be a little better, the insulation and copper seems to be nicer than industrial stuff. Yes I believe power cords and sockets make a noticable difference. Do I think a powercord at $80 a foot will really sound better than any thing else? Well perhaps not, but the uber shielding, durability, etc, is not to be argued with as being better, it just is not worth it to about any one.
Oxygen free copper is not as big of a joke as you think... When copper has oxidation it can hurt signal, as it happens on the outside of copper, and that is where the signal is traveling.
You guys might think some of this is funny but.... I however not in the least think so at all. I have good hearing and the improvements in sound from cables and connectors is one of my absolute favorite improvement ways. I am not all about "smooth" all the time.... I want to hear every thing, and more detail is where it is at, and it is hugely in connectors and wire.
I actaully dislike some pretty spendy stuff with cables that cost a thousand a pop. Sure they sound smooth, the soundstage might be good, may not be, and they reveal good recordings from bad... I however may not like them. I really enjoy detail I guess is what I am saying. I also believe detail is not inherently huge depedency on the speakers, they are the weakest link for detail. That is my opinion. I think speakers are far from the weakest link for detail.
Thanks for the replies.
Oh yes if you want to discuss some thing funny.... Cables with large boxes on them that usually have crappy parts in them, that is amusing. It is unbelievable what is in some of the most expensive cables.... I disbelieve in all attachment devices for cables.
Any that I have heard, not impressed with at ALL.
Any that I have heard, not impressed with at ALL.
I use Michael Percy, who is in California, (as am I.) I don't have a lot of RF around, so I don't use shielded cables.
I use the Cardas hookup bare silver wire, the best I've tried. #24 is $1.50 a foot, so the money is not in the wire, but in the connectors. I use teflon tubing, #22 at $.25/ft. After tubing the bare wire, I spiral empty #20 tubing around it, and secure it at the ends with a couple of tight turns of wire. This goes into 4 ga teflon tubing; do this twice, then spiral the two assemblies around each other, and add the connectors, flex covering if you wish and heat shrink for strain relief and looks.
The silver does not sound smooth because it "rounds off" the music, but is smooth simply because it does not add any roughness. Low level detail is better, and the warmth is a clean, natural warmth, in the way that live music is warm.
Let us know what you try, and how it turns out.
I use the Cardas hookup bare silver wire, the best I've tried. #24 is $1.50 a foot, so the money is not in the wire, but in the connectors. I use teflon tubing, #22 at $.25/ft. After tubing the bare wire, I spiral empty #20 tubing around it, and secure it at the ends with a couple of tight turns of wire. This goes into 4 ga teflon tubing; do this twice, then spiral the two assemblies around each other, and add the connectors, flex covering if you wish and heat shrink for strain relief and looks.
The silver does not sound smooth because it "rounds off" the music, but is smooth simply because it does not add any roughness. Low level detail is better, and the warmth is a clean, natural warmth, in the way that live music is warm.
Let us know what you try, and how it turns out.
I am not implying that the Oxygen Free Copper thing is a joke... I am saying that it is a scam... perhaps a lie.
The oxygen content for copper that is destined for wire use is deliberately held at a value of abut 200 ppm. This is where peak conductivity is achieved. Also, with oxygen concentrations above or below that value other negatives begin to appear. Oxygen in copper serves as a scavenger by turning impurites, there will ALWAYS be some, into harmless (soluble I believe) oxides.
Now... wire is big business... real big. The people that make wire will use 200 ppm copper because it works right. There are not that many companies that make the big wire that other companies draw into smaller wire. The companies that draw the smaller wire don't want truely OFC either. Why? It screws up their machines (diamond dies big $$) and doesn't draw well.
Truely OFC free copper is usually obtained by adding phosphorus or boron to "scrub" the oxygen. This wire find uses where high vacuum is involved... transmitting tubes, particle accelerators and the like. The addition of these elements brings negatives as well.
I simply don't believe that any of this "OFC wire" being peddled by the various audio charlatans is one bit different than good ole' ETP copper.
Furthermore, you wouldn't want TRUELY OFC for an electrical application unless you had some mitigating factor (like high vacuum) that warranted tolerating its lessor qualites (less conductive).
By the way... coffee grows in the mountains.
Methinks Neutron make know a thing or two about the high vacuum stuff...
The oxygen content for copper that is destined for wire use is deliberately held at a value of abut 200 ppm. This is where peak conductivity is achieved. Also, with oxygen concentrations above or below that value other negatives begin to appear. Oxygen in copper serves as a scavenger by turning impurites, there will ALWAYS be some, into harmless (soluble I believe) oxides.
Now... wire is big business... real big. The people that make wire will use 200 ppm copper because it works right. There are not that many companies that make the big wire that other companies draw into smaller wire. The companies that draw the smaller wire don't want truely OFC either. Why? It screws up their machines (diamond dies big $$) and doesn't draw well.
Truely OFC free copper is usually obtained by adding phosphorus or boron to "scrub" the oxygen. This wire find uses where high vacuum is involved... transmitting tubes, particle accelerators and the like. The addition of these elements brings negatives as well.
I simply don't believe that any of this "OFC wire" being peddled by the various audio charlatans is one bit different than good ole' ETP copper.
Furthermore, you wouldn't want TRUELY OFC for an electrical application unless you had some mitigating factor (like high vacuum) that warranted tolerating its lessor qualites (less conductive).
By the way... coffee grows in the mountains.
Methinks Neutron make know a thing or two about the high vacuum stuff...
OFC is industrial-grade copper. It's used because it's softer and doesn't crack as easily.
OFC has higher resistance than non-OFC! Using this logic, if OFC is better than non-OFC, then silver must be the worst material. But then, that would imply that there's any sense or reason involved in the making of high-end audio.
OFC has higher resistance than non-OFC! Using this logic, if OFC is better than non-OFC, then silver must be the worst material. But then, that would imply that there's any sense or reason involved in the making of high-end audio.
Hey Peter Daniel,
interesting... audioquest speaker cable used as power cord.
I have a type 4 laying around somewhere will have to try it out.
But type 4 is a solid core ~15awg did you do anything special to mount it on the power plug. Most power cord are stranded and easier to fit inside the male/female power plug.
thanks
interesting... audioquest speaker cable used as power cord.
I have a type 4 laying around somewhere will have to try it out.
But type 4 is a solid core ~15awg did you do anything special to mount it on the power plug. Most power cord are stranded and easier to fit inside the male/female power plug.
thanks
New revisions....
I think I will build silver wire interconnects. I will start with bare silver wire and put teflon over it, and heatshrink at the ends.... I think this is what I will do, also for my wire inside the amplifier and passive preamplifier I believe I will do this....
What guage of silver is good that will not just sheer itself?
I thought about using it for speaker cables too.... However I like the idea of the copper foil speaker cables, two strips for positive and two strips for negative seperated by tape.......
I think I will build silver wire interconnects. I will start with bare silver wire and put teflon over it, and heatshrink at the ends.... I think this is what I will do, also for my wire inside the amplifier and passive preamplifier I believe I will do this....
What guage of silver is good that will not just sheer itself?
I thought about using it for speaker cables too.... However I like the idea of the copper foil speaker cables, two strips for positive and two strips for negative seperated by tape.......
Silver work hardens more than copper, but can still withstand reasonable handling. I used #23 which Michael Percy no longer carries, or #24 nowadays. #21 I think would also work fine , but I like the lower cost of the 24.
Silver does get way too expensive for heavy, long, speaker cables. The only thing to watch out for on the strip copper is that you can get a lot of capacitance, more than some amplifiers like. One way to get around it is to put the strips this way ---- instead of |||| this way. If you put it ----, you still get low inductance, and with much less capacitance.
The 24 works well for amplifier wiring, except for the high current areas; power supply, output, ground bus. For those, #16 is a much better choice.
I like either Wonder solder or Cardas. Not at all sure they sound better, but they are very good solder.
Silver does get way too expensive for heavy, long, speaker cables. The only thing to watch out for on the strip copper is that you can get a lot of capacitance, more than some amplifiers like. One way to get around it is to put the strips this way ---- instead of |||| this way. If you put it ----, you still get low inductance, and with much less capacitance.
The 24 works well for amplifier wiring, except for the high current areas; power supply, output, ground bus. For those, #16 is a much better choice.
I like either Wonder solder or Cardas. Not at all sure they sound better, but they are very good solder.
Yeah..... Well I can be careful enough I believe.... plus I can probably put some heatshrink over it, which will tighten it up. I think I might make these later, I have totalled my costs starting to reach over $800 for every thing 
I need to get some more money before I order every thing. I suppose it is ok though I got till mid April until my transformer is here any how....
Do you guys think 16 guage power cord would work for say laptop, and a 50wRMS GC 3875? Perhaps a Phono Bugle later? It should be good for 14 amps.
I need to get some more money before I order every thing. I suppose it is ok though I got till mid April until my transformer is here any how.... Do you guys think 16 guage power cord would work for say laptop, and a 50wRMS GC 3875? Perhaps a Phono Bugle later? It should be good for 14 amps.
I'd suggest relaxing a bit and enjoying the ride. With an $800 budget, as was mentioned above, speakers are a major concern, and then next, the electronics. Cables usually come last; it's not likely that they will be the critical factor on that budget. On the other hand, DIY cables can be fun, and not too expensive. But before then, speaker placement and room treatment will probably do much more for you than fancy cables. And for the amplifier that you're planning to build, good capacitors will make a bigger difference than silver hookup wire, although the wire is inexpensive and cool. Upgrading crossover components will almost certainly be necessary to get more from the speakers. You'll learn as you go along, you'll probably make decisions that you'll want to change later, but it's all good.
And incidentally, you should certainly listen to live music, unamplified if possible; partly because in the end it should be all about the music, and partly to "anchor" your conception of high fidelity in reality.
(I once had a friend who had maxxed out his credit cards, continually upgrading his system; he had no more than a dozen records. Don't let it become an obsession. A rule of thumb is that your system should cost about as much as your music collection. )
And to answer your question, yes, 16 ga is fine.
And incidentally, you should certainly listen to live music, unamplified if possible; partly because in the end it should be all about the music, and partly to "anchor" your conception of high fidelity in reality.
(I once had a friend who had maxxed out his credit cards, continually upgrading his system; he had no more than a dozen records. Don't let it become an obsession. A rule of thumb is that your system should cost about as much as your music collection. )
And to answer your question, yes, 16 ga is fine.
I will have more money. I just simply do not have it ready to order say today so I get stuff in the week. I was a little surprized how fast stuff added up!
I live in a dorm so room treatment is not an option. We have the Stud Lounge (Study Lounge, we removed the Y) that I take over and play music in.... Later I will hopefully be in a house, after spring. During the summer I will probably have a room all to myself but again treating it will not happen.
I have changed my mind to ZERO crossover any thing within the system.
I listen to a lot of live music, every corner has a guitar player around it here.
I think I will wait on the silver interconnects with eichman bullet plugs, and a few parts for the amplifier until mid April any how.... That is when I get my Plitron transformer.
I live in a dorm so room treatment is not an option. We have the Stud Lounge (Study Lounge, we removed the Y) that I take over and play music in.... Later I will hopefully be in a house, after spring. During the summer I will probably have a room all to myself but again treating it will not happen.
I have changed my mind to ZERO crossover any thing within the system.
I listen to a lot of live music, every corner has a guitar player around it here.
I think I will wait on the silver interconnects with eichman bullet plugs, and a few parts for the amplifier until mid April any how.... That is when I get my Plitron transformer.
i'm sorry, but I couldn't read four pages on speaker connections without my head exploding, so I hope I'm not repeating anything.
I've never understood how anyone could rationalize that under ANY circumstances more crimps or solder connections than is absolutely unavoidable is a good thing. Unless, of course, you're selling absurdly expensive interconnects. Every speaker I've ever built has pigtails. The wire I've used to connect the crossovers gets gasketed through the back with a plug of silicone. I leave about two feet dangling. These are connected to my speaker wire with ... ta dah... Wire Nuts! There is nothing more electrically solid and efficient than this tightly twisted joint. Just how often do you mess with this connection anyway? If it ever gets frayed, oxidized, (or whatever) beyond use, just cut away half an inch. If it must be connected to someone elses interconnects, just gin up an adapter.
A copper to copper twisted joint arguably beats a gold plated plug anyway. Pure gold is a less efficient signal conductor than copper. Why is is used on connections? It resists oxidization better. But more importantly, it is more malleable than copper. Because of this, when it is brought into contact with another metal, it provides a larger contact area. The larger contact area is a positive trade-off for it's slightly lesser conductivity. But If you're twisting stranded copper together with wire nuts, you've got the best of both. Lots and lots of contact area, unobstructed by any other metal.
I've never understood how anyone could rationalize that under ANY circumstances more crimps or solder connections than is absolutely unavoidable is a good thing. Unless, of course, you're selling absurdly expensive interconnects. Every speaker I've ever built has pigtails. The wire I've used to connect the crossovers gets gasketed through the back with a plug of silicone. I leave about two feet dangling. These are connected to my speaker wire with ... ta dah... Wire Nuts! There is nothing more electrically solid and efficient than this tightly twisted joint. Just how often do you mess with this connection anyway? If it ever gets frayed, oxidized, (or whatever) beyond use, just cut away half an inch. If it must be connected to someone elses interconnects, just gin up an adapter.
A copper to copper twisted joint arguably beats a gold plated plug anyway. Pure gold is a less efficient signal conductor than copper. Why is is used on connections? It resists oxidization better. But more importantly, it is more malleable than copper. Because of this, when it is brought into contact with another metal, it provides a larger contact area. The larger contact area is a positive trade-off for it's slightly lesser conductivity. But If you're twisting stranded copper together with wire nuts, you've got the best of both. Lots and lots of contact area, unobstructed by any other metal.
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