INTO PERSPECTIVE
Fred,
I can't agree more.Silly game,me too feeling.
Nonsense of course.
I can give you on a silver platter that 90% of the so called audio superbrand stuff is actually sourced by some smart ***** somewhere browsing through industrial catalogues.
This is especially true for coupling caps.
You know how the industry works but should we really tell everybody else?
Come to think of it this goes for electron tubes and semi conductors as well:rebranding business equals big bucks.
Why don't we put together a list of lesser known brands of say capicitors that sound at least as good as the flavour of the day stuff.
I know I could,eeeasy.
The audio industry is not going to love us for it though.
Still looking for a job?
I suggest maybe you then stop shooting yourself in the foot,Fred?
Cheers,
Fred,
I can't agree more.Silly game,me too feeling.
Nonsense of course.
I can give you on a silver platter that 90% of the so called audio superbrand stuff is actually sourced by some smart ***** somewhere browsing through industrial catalogues.
This is especially true for coupling caps.
You know how the industry works but should we really tell everybody else?
Come to think of it this goes for electron tubes and semi conductors as well:rebranding business equals big bucks.
Why don't we put together a list of lesser known brands of say capicitors that sound at least as good as the flavour of the day stuff.
I know I could,eeeasy.
The audio industry is not going to love us for it though.
Still looking for a job?
I suggest maybe you then stop shooting yourself in the foot,Fred?
Cheers,
Fred,
I know what you mean.
I once rebuilt my very nice tube amp into the casework of a 70's Jap SS amp because I liked the look of the case. Anyhoo, I invited another 'phile over to listen to my latest amp, and when he saw me turn the selector on the Jap casework, I thought he was going to vomit on the floor. He listened to it, and pronounced all these things wrong with it, all the while being jittery and uncomfortable, and just wanting to be out of there. He'd liked the same circuit the time before when he heard it, the only difference this time was the case.
I've never told him the truth, just said that I prefered the original circuit and decided to use that. Still cracks me up thinking about it.
Frank
<b>Why don't we put together a list of lesser known brands of say capicitors that sound at least as good as the flavour of the day stuff.
I know I could,eeeasy.</b>
Please do. I've found these Epcos mylar caps recently that sound great. Stacked film construction, cheap and available.
Cheers
I know what you mean.
I once rebuilt my very nice tube amp into the casework of a 70's Jap SS amp because I liked the look of the case. Anyhoo, I invited another 'phile over to listen to my latest amp, and when he saw me turn the selector on the Jap casework, I thought he was going to vomit on the floor. He listened to it, and pronounced all these things wrong with it, all the while being jittery and uncomfortable, and just wanting to be out of there. He'd liked the same circuit the time before when he heard it, the only difference this time was the case.
I've never told him the truth, just said that I prefered the original circuit and decided to use that. Still cracks me up thinking about it.
Frank
<b>Why don't we put together a list of lesser known brands of say capicitors that sound at least as good as the flavour of the day stuff.
I know I could,eeeasy.</b>
Please do. I've found these Epcos mylar caps recently that sound great. Stacked film construction, cheap and available.
Cheers
I suggest maybe you then stop shooting yourself in the foot,Fred?
I don't keep firearms in the house for my own protection from my long suffering wife. The fact that I wake up each day (knowing that we have a fine collection of kitchen knives) is miraculous as it is. Of course she knows that I am having dessert with a cute former telecom co op in her favorite restaurant (named Sweet Temptations no less) today. If I don't ever show up on the forum again well............
Fred
P.S. My favorite sensibly priced capacitors? Mystery Caps of course! Pay attention.
I don't keep firearms in the house for my own protection from my long suffering wife. The fact that I wake up each day (knowing that we have a fine collection of kitchen knives) is miraculous as it is. Of course she knows that I am having dessert with a cute former telecom co op in her favorite restaurant (named Sweet Temptations no less) today. If I don't ever show up on the forum again well............
Fred
P.S. My favorite sensibly priced capacitors? Mystery Caps of course! Pay attention.
FRED
Hi Fred,
Glad to see you kept your sense of humour.
BTW,the French telecom business that laid you guys off wouldn't be M...a Telecommunications,would it?
If so,I'll sell all my stock.Immediately,promise.
See you,
Brett,
Why not indeed.
EU,OZ,US+Canada etc.
Anyone else wanting to chip in?
Cheers,
Hi Fred,
Glad to see you kept your sense of humour.
BTW,the French telecom business that laid you guys off wouldn't be M...a Telecommunications,would it?
If so,I'll sell all my stock.Immediately,promise.
See you,
Brett,
Why not indeed.
EU,OZ,US+Canada etc.
Anyone else wanting to chip in?
Cheers,
Jean-Paul,
{burb!} just have to put the rest of my last victim out of the barbed wire on my teeth
For me any component is junk until it has passed this longterm check.
You should see my audio resistor junkbox, full of vintage resistors looking like junk. But none of them is magnetic (as no magnetic resistor ever passed the longterm test for more than 5 minute when compared to any given non-magnetic one, even carbon layer construction ones) some of them are Vishay and Shinko Tantalum, many of them are inductive and non-inductive WW,vintage military surplus, many of them are carefully soldered out of junked Tek and HP scopes. Of the latter i have still half a bucket full, mainly those incredibly rugged grey carbon layer ones Tek preferred for most purposes and Allen Bradley carbon composites.
Not yet sorted into bags of same value. No time
. I got surplus resistors, anyone selling surplus time?
Amazing: albeit carbon resistors have a bad rep for not keeping their value over decades, i have not yet had one single resistor butchered out of old scopes not have held his value within specified tolerance. Same with capacitors, BTW.
So the rumours seem to be true:
1st quality goes to military production, 2nd goes to industrial applications, 3rd goes into automotive prodiction, 4th into brown ware & hite ware & consumer gear, 5th quality you can buy over the street at the local electronics shop.
Vishay bulk foil resistors are 1st quality and pricing also is MIL-spec.
Frank,
i disagree about what you said to Fred,
Fred as well as me is exactly the sort of mentality best hated in the audio indistry establishment of today.
If anyone of us founding a business plays it straight and declares **honesty** as policy of his audio enterprise, he has a USP, a unique selling point in the eyes of a huge crowd of customers cheated one time too often by other manufacturers, other sellers.
Methinks, this particular USP cannot esteemed high enough in our audio world of today.
Typing this, i can already smell the sweat of fear of said other manufacturers, other sellers, those who cheat customers.
Admitted, some customers literally ask for being cheated. Wire of the week syndrome, i know this well.
All,
i am in for a list of not so $$$ components.
BTW, the MKVs of the group purchase are on top of my list. I don't need AudioNote silver/PIO at $400 for 1µF. I take MKVs and if i skin them, i have mystery caps already. ROTLFMAO
{burb!} just have to put the rest of my last victim out of the barbed wire on my teeth
For me any component is junk until it has passed this longterm check.
You should see my audio resistor junkbox, full of vintage resistors looking like junk. But none of them is magnetic (as no magnetic resistor ever passed the longterm test for more than 5 minute when compared to any given non-magnetic one, even carbon layer construction ones) some of them are Vishay and Shinko Tantalum, many of them are inductive and non-inductive WW,vintage military surplus, many of them are carefully soldered out of junked Tek and HP scopes. Of the latter i have still half a bucket full, mainly those incredibly rugged grey carbon layer ones Tek preferred for most purposes and Allen Bradley carbon composites.
Not yet sorted into bags of same value. No time
. I got surplus resistors, anyone selling surplus time? Amazing: albeit carbon resistors have a bad rep for not keeping their value over decades, i have not yet had one single resistor butchered out of old scopes not have held his value within specified tolerance. Same with capacitors, BTW.
So the rumours seem to be true:
1st quality goes to military production, 2nd goes to industrial applications, 3rd goes into automotive prodiction, 4th into brown ware & hite ware & consumer gear, 5th quality you can buy over the street at the local electronics shop.
Vishay bulk foil resistors are 1st quality and pricing also is MIL-spec.
Frank,
i disagree about what you said to Fred,
Fred as well as me is exactly the sort of mentality best hated in the audio indistry establishment of today.
If anyone of us founding a business plays it straight and declares **honesty** as policy of his audio enterprise, he has a USP, a unique selling point in the eyes of a huge crowd of customers cheated one time too often by other manufacturers, other sellers.
Methinks, this particular USP cannot esteemed high enough in our audio world of today.
Typing this, i can already smell the sweat of fear of said other manufacturers, other sellers, those who cheat customers.
Admitted, some customers literally ask for being cheated. Wire of the week syndrome, i know this well.
All,
i am in for a list of not so $$$ components.
BTW, the MKVs of the group purchase are on top of my list. I don't need AudioNote silver/PIO at $400 for 1µF. I take MKVs and if i skin them, i have mystery caps already.
ROTLFMAO
Sense of humour.
Bernhard,
Sure,I agree for 50000% with you.
But we don't want to face lawsuits either,do we?
Hence my cautionary remark as to not pinch too many baloons.
That's why I suggest to group some info on alternative sources and yes the Epcos are very good.
I found a dealer in Tchekia if you're running out of sources,BTW.
In business my filosophy is always quality and honnesty towards customers.
That doesn't necessarily imply I tell them where I get my goods from.
Honnesty always pays off at the end of the day,same goes for long term policies.
Rgds,
Bernhard,
Sure,I agree for 50000% with you.
But we don't want to face lawsuits either,do we?
Hence my cautionary remark as to not pinch too many baloons.
That's why I suggest to group some info on alternative sources and yes the Epcos are very good.
I found a dealer in Tchekia if you're running out of sources,BTW.
In business my filosophy is always quality and honnesty towards customers.
That doesn't necessarily imply I tell them where I get my goods from.
Honnesty always pays off at the end of the day,same goes for long term policies.
Rgds,
The REAL meaning of psyschoacoustics.
I'm just waiting for the time when someone gets on and starts telling us how and where we should place our hifi hardware according to the principles of Feng Shui. I don't mind others having a different opinion to me though.
GP.
I think those enchanted power cords do exactly the same thing to some people. Clearly a psychological phenomena more than anything else. What is real though, is a particular individual's necessity of believing certain certain circumstances to be true before they can fully enjoy some music. An engineer can't put hard numbers to this but that doesn't mean it is invalid, just annoying to those of us that know better.Brett said:
I'm just waiting for the time when someone gets on and starts telling us how and where we should place our hifi hardware according to the principles of Feng Shui.
I don't mind others having a different opinion to me though. GP.
you are being hoodwinked
Maybe I am in the minority here, and I certainly don't want to offend anybody in particular, but the whole passive parts debate is really a waste of time.
Think about it: why do you not see a single mention of the "sound" of resistors/caps/wire, etc until the mid to late 70's? Because all the brain power (ie. Engineers) left tubes behind and went to solid state, leaving us amateurs to sort things out. And it's just like the guy who fusses about the designer oil he puts in his car religiously, yet he can't point the alternator out to you. "Parts tweaks" are the only thing people can easily modify when they know little about electronics and circuit design. They feel rather helpless looking at a power supply with all those wires - but they know how to spot and change a capacitor.
As for the knowledgable people who believe in magic parts - I'm thinking you're not quite as knowledgable as you come off.
Again, sorry if this is offensive to anybody - I just get mad seeing very enthuiastic, well-meaning, new DIY'ers suckered by retailers into thinking they need $20 coupling caps in order to make a worthy amplifier. I will audition a 71A SE for you made with radio shack resistors and Xicon polyester caps that will make you wonder where I'm hiding the orchestra.
Maybe I am in the minority here, and I certainly don't want to offend anybody in particular, but the whole passive parts debate is really a waste of time.
Think about it: why do you not see a single mention of the "sound" of resistors/caps/wire, etc until the mid to late 70's? Because all the brain power (ie. Engineers) left tubes behind and went to solid state, leaving us amateurs to sort things out. And it's just like the guy who fusses about the designer oil he puts in his car religiously, yet he can't point the alternator out to you. "Parts tweaks" are the only thing people can easily modify when they know little about electronics and circuit design. They feel rather helpless looking at a power supply with all those wires - but they know how to spot and change a capacitor.
As for the knowledgable people who believe in magic parts - I'm thinking you're not quite as knowledgable as you come off.
Again, sorry if this is offensive to anybody - I just get mad seeing very enthuiastic, well-meaning, new DIY'ers suckered by retailers into thinking they need $20 coupling caps in order to make a worthy amplifier. I will audition a 71A SE for you made with radio shack resistors and Xicon polyester caps that will make you wonder where I'm hiding the orchestra.
One thing of diy audio is that we don't fall into the trap of standard mass market commercial equipement.
But if one go and buy and outragously priced tiny component wich finally d'ont have much of an impact on the overall performance, one still got caught in a commercial trap. Yes their is one person who benefit this thing but it't the buyer.
But I d'ont say that we should use the cheapest part. just some reasonably priced and good quality parts.
But if one go and buy and outragously priced tiny component wich finally d'ont have much of an impact on the overall performance, one still got caught in a commercial trap. Yes their is one person who benefit this thing but it't the buyer.
But I d'ont say that we should use the cheapest part. just some reasonably priced and good quality parts.
im still quite the newbie in the diyaudio community, but i have mixed feelings about using "hi-fi" parts. i was talking with the designers over at edge electronics (new up and coming company that designs solid state amps here in boulder) and they told me they find whatever parts they can get. they use regular resistors, plain caps, etc...
now, to give you an idea, their amps have won the golden ear award from absolute sound twice, a reviewer from stereophile said its the best amp he's ever heard, and they have been praised. some saying their amps even completely beat out boulder, levinson, and high level krell. (of course, they sell for $5K - $100K). but i guess my point, it seems only the DIY guys like us are using these HIGH quality parts...
now, to give you an idea, their amps have won the golden ear award from absolute sound twice, a reviewer from stereophile said its the best amp he's ever heard, and they have been praised. some saying their amps even completely beat out boulder, levinson, and high level krell. (of course, they sell for $5K - $100K). but i guess my point, it seems only the DIY guys like us are using these HIGH quality parts...
Hi,
Here in my country getting even standard electronic parts is becoming harder and harder by the minute.
Most big retailshops changed their inventory form those parts to computor spares and what have you.
From that point of view our diy'ers are grateful to see some specialized audio businesses offering high quality components they picked from the industrial distribution chain or from fellow businesses trhoughout the world.
When you have your own business and want to build some gear your approach to this will be different.
When Brett and myself suggested we could make a list of components we know to be good sounding we inevetibly would run into the same brickwall.Where will you,the end user buy them?
Now we can still narrow that list down and tell you what makes and models of caps or resistors we find fine for audio use and do some sourcing with the major online suppliers.
To give but one example:
Jadis,a French tube amp manufacturer used ICEL coupling caps (Italo condensatori elettrici) and I found them in the RS Components catalogue.
Sourcing however is a very time consuming business even on the internet.
If however any of you have difficulty with that we're here to give you some clues.
Best regards,
Here in my country getting even standard electronic parts is becoming harder and harder by the minute.
Most big retailshops changed their inventory form those parts to computor spares and what have you.
From that point of view our diy'ers are grateful to see some specialized audio businesses offering high quality components they picked from the industrial distribution chain or from fellow businesses trhoughout the world.
When you have your own business and want to build some gear your approach to this will be different.
When Brett and myself suggested we could make a list of components we know to be good sounding we inevetibly would run into the same brickwall.Where will you,the end user buy them?
Now we can still narrow that list down and tell you what makes and models of caps or resistors we find fine for audio use and do some sourcing with the major online suppliers.
To give but one example:
Jadis,a French tube amp manufacturer used ICEL coupling caps (Italo condensatori elettrici) and I found them in the RS Components catalogue.
Sourcing however is a very time consuming business even on the internet.
If however any of you have difficulty with that we're here to give you some clues.
Best regards,
double checked
Yes,this an URL
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/...dfhk.0&3212853805=3212853805&catoid=-92610811
Rgds,
Yes,this an URL
http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/...dfhk.0&3212853805=3212853805&catoid=-92610811
Rgds,
cowanrg said:
I recall reading a Stereophile review of a $35k+ Boulder amp in which the reviewer found that the placement of a couple mpingo disks (or was it a Shakti stone?) on a couple corners of the amplifier "fixed" the sound that was lacking "something" without the disks .
To me, such a review reduces the reviewer's credibility to ZERO, and makes me wonder about the whole magazine, because if the publisher/editor will let THAT sort of crap pass, what else will they let through? What sort of qualifications do the reviewers have anyway?
When I see people talking about swapping parts and some guy says he likes one type of resistor for one purpose, and another type for another purpose, and he hates this type for that purpose, I have to ask how did they ever reach this state of opinion? If you have 6 resistors in a simple amp, and you have 6 different types of resistors available (Holco, Vishay, etc. etc.), there are 46,656 different combinations of the six different types of resistors that can be applied to the amp. How is it possible that anyone is ever going to try so many combinations and then actually form some opinions about each one?
OK, realizing the impossibility of the task, the tweeker will come up with a set of justifications (valid or not) to rule out some of the possibilities. You're still left with hundreds of possibilities to try and form opinions. How will your circuit board handle so much soldering and unsoldering? How long do you have to listen after each change to asess the result? How much of your lifetime are you willing to spend swapping resistors? That's a simple example with a few resistors. Now add a few caps and how many millions more combinations do you have to test?
OK, let's say some guy says he has found some magic combination of parts that gives him optimal results (whatever his definition of that is). How many people will have an identical item in which to try the exact same set-up?
Then there's the sticky issue of whether the guy actually heard a difference or just thought he did...
Some guys will say, "try it and see" about everything. I respond that I have much better things to do with my limited time on this earth.
MR
MRehorst said:
So why do you bother to make posts like the one above in a first place?
It seems like you want to find any excuse to cover your guilt that you don't have enough will (or motivation) to experiment.
Regarding mpingo disks or Shakti stone check my comments on my CDP setup for best sound here: http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4808&perpage=15&highlight=spikes&pagenumber=4 It is not exactly the same, but similar approach. The whole thread was locked because of that.
Hi,
A bit skeptical I see?
No offense,but some people make it their living doing exactly that.
No single person can possibly do all that alone for sure.
Back in 1986 when I had my business a lot of friends heard about passive components sounding different from each other.
We compared individual results and arrived at a common consensus.
Compared results obtained from different countries as well.
Now would you believe that 9 out 10 all these listening results matched?
Since newer technologies hit the market this is bound to be an ongoing process.
The press is a can of worms I'm not inclined to open here in public or I may just as well never ever get a chance to listen to music.
My advice is never take anything at face value,investigate and draw your own conclusions?
Do we believe everything politicians claim?
I don't,neither should anyone else.
In conclusion,if you're happy with what you have then that's fine.
We're all different and I'd like to keep it that way.
I really should not have to explain all this,or should I?
Rgds,
A bit skeptical I see?
No offense,but some people make it their living doing exactly that.
No single person can possibly do all that alone for sure.
Back in 1986 when I had my business a lot of friends heard about passive components sounding different from each other.
We compared individual results and arrived at a common consensus.
Compared results obtained from different countries as well.
Now would you believe that 9 out 10 all these listening results matched?
Since newer technologies hit the market this is bound to be an ongoing process.
The press is a can of worms I'm not inclined to open here in public or I may just as well never ever get a chance to listen to music.
My advice is never take anything at face value,investigate and draw your own conclusions?
Do we believe everything politicians claim?
I don't,neither should anyone else.
In conclusion,if you're happy with what you have then that's fine.
We're all different and I'd like to keep it that way.
I really should not have to explain all this,or should I?
Rgds,
I built two amps with identical circuits, different parts. They both sounded great, one cost me five times what the other did. I didn't notice a difference, so that's enough for me. I just stick to digikey parts from now on, Panasonic FC caps and Yaego resistors, no problem with them at all. Maybe my ears suck, and if so I'm greatful because I don't have to spend $11 on a resistor to be happy.
If $11 on a resistor is what makes you happy, go for it, enjoying your stereo is what it's there for. But do make sure it's money well spent.
Some may say your "system" isn't good enough for you to notice a difference, in that case save your money from not buying tantalum resistors and black gate caps to make the rest of your "system" better, or take your wife/girlfriend out to a fancy dinner, it's up to you.
To me DIY is about getting amazing preformance at a fraction of the price of comercial gear (as well as the fun of building it), when it reaches the point of getting slightly better gear for basically the same price as commercial stuff (plus the man hours) I find it a waste. That's just my opinion, now you form your own.
If $11 on a resistor is what makes you happy, go for it, enjoying your stereo is what it's there for. But do make sure it's money well spent.
Some may say your "system" isn't good enough for you to notice a difference, in that case save your money from not buying tantalum resistors and black gate caps to make the rest of your "system" better, or take your wife/girlfriend out to a fancy dinner, it's up to you.
To me DIY is about getting amazing preformance at a fraction of the price of comercial gear (as well as the fun of building it), when it reaches the point of getting slightly better gear for basically the same price as commercial stuff (plus the man hours) I find it a waste. That's just my opinion, now you form your own.
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