"the reviewer found that the placement of a couple mpingo disks (or was it a Shakti stone?) on a couple corners of the amplifier "fixed" the sound .... To me, such a review reduces the reviewer's credibility to ZERO"
MRehorst, have you actually ever seen or heard the effect of Mpingo discs ?.
I have, and I agree that they do alter the sound of high resoloution systems, and the effect is placement and rotational dependant.
The effect is relatively minor, but it can give pleasantness to an otherwise very good system that is not quite sitting just right.
Other materials alter sounds also, as is Peter's experience.
I don't mind the effect of the Mpingos but I am not in love with that sound, mainly because I use different materials in strategic places and get a nicer sound in my opinion, and stronger effect.
Uninformed and outright dismissal of reviewers or constructors comments and observations much more so gives me (of you) the impression of "ZERO credibility".
Eric.
MRehorst, have you actually ever seen or heard the effect of Mpingo discs ?.
I have, and I agree that they do alter the sound of high resoloution systems, and the effect is placement and rotational dependant.
The effect is relatively minor, but it can give pleasantness to an otherwise very good system that is not quite sitting just right.
Other materials alter sounds also, as is Peter's experience.
I don't mind the effect of the Mpingos but I am not in love with that sound, mainly because I use different materials in strategic places and get a nicer sound in my opinion, and stronger effect.
Uninformed and outright dismissal of reviewers or constructors comments and observations much more so gives me (of you) the impression of "ZERO credibility".
Eric.
Re: RESISTANCE.
I don't think it will ever happen.
I almost gave up and decided not to comment, but few words triggered my response and here we are.
It's perfectly OK with me if someone decides on a certain approach and/or point of view, but please don't discourage newbies from thinking for themself. Most of what I've read in the pointed thread was a pure speculation.
I wish I could be in a position where only the parts from Digi-Key could satisfy me.
fdegrove said:
I don't think it will ever happen.
I almost gave up and decided not to comment, but few words triggered my response and here we are. It's perfectly OK with me if someone decides on a certain approach and/or point of view, but please don't discourage newbies from thinking for themself. Most of what I've read in the pointed thread was a pure speculation.
I wish I could be in a position where only the parts from Digi-Key could satisfy me.
I have expressed my opinion of mpingo disks, reviewers who believe in them, and magazines that publish such reviews, and I doubt anyone wants to read any more, so I won't comment further.
Does anyone have any answers to the questions I posted about swapping components, and specifically the process they use to narrow down many thousands of possible combinations to just a few worthy of testing, and then their methodology for testing and drawing conclusions about the results?
Thanks,
MR
Does anyone have any answers to the questions I posted about swapping components, and specifically the process they use to narrow down many thousands of possible combinations to just a few worthy of testing, and then their methodology for testing and drawing conclusions about the results?
Thanks,
MR
You don't have to change all the resistors and try all the choices. Choose one specific location (series input resistor, feedback or I/V resistor) and use one regular metal film and your choice of exotic brand resistor (let's say S102 Vishay). If there is no difference, your search is over. If you have a prefference for one of them and you really like the results, you might check other locations and other resistors choices as well. But it all depends how much time you have.
As much as I like to talk about it, switching and checking all brands of different resistors is not my cap of tea either, so I usually stick to one particular choice and if I'm using really expensive stuff it is series and feedback resistors primary. But I can check for hours crossover caps. I never found a single cap that sounded according to my expectations. But mixing them and combining usually brings results.
As much as I like to talk about it, switching and checking all brands of different resistors is not my cap of tea either, so I usually stick to one particular choice and if I'm using really expensive stuff it is series and feedback resistors primary. But I can check for hours crossover caps. I never found a single cap that sounded according to my expectations. But mixing them and combining usually brings results.
i just think its funny. i saw the EXACT amp that won the golden ear award... these mind you are the same people who claim that better parts, wierd plates, etc, make all the difference in a system...
we cracked it open, and it was radioshack all the way. connectors were from mouser, like $3 each i think, just plain RCA's. the speaker posts were alright, but prolly just $5 each. he couldnt even tell me where most of the parts came from, most all were just generic, or "whatever was cheapest".
i think using all parts from digikey is somewhat of a "hats off" to the designer of the circuit. three cheers for nelson for designing an amp that DOESNT need $11 resistors
(of course my aleph will have black gates, vishays, and WBT connectors. but hey, it will sound good, and i dont want to make you all out to be liars now do i?)
we cracked it open, and it was radioshack all the way. connectors were from mouser, like $3 each i think, just plain RCA's. the speaker posts were alright, but prolly just $5 each. he couldnt even tell me where most of the parts came from, most all were just generic, or "whatever was cheapest".
i think using all parts from digikey is somewhat of a "hats off" to the designer of the circuit. three cheers for nelson for designing an amp that DOESNT need $11 resistors
(of course my aleph will have black gates, vishays, and WBT connectors. but hey, it will sound good, and i dont want to make you all out to be liars now do i?)
possibly...
however, i dont think the REST of my system would have the resolution to be able to tell. i think im one of the only people here who is actually satisfied with my system.
why am i building amps then? arent mine good enough right now? well, its actually for a second room, im perfectly happy with my other system, i just want another for the living room
be happy with what you have when you have it. dont be happy with what you dont have when you dont have it. we live in the present. audiophiles cant seem the grasp that simple concept, even though they can hear the difference between things that shouldnt be physically possible. maybe they need to start from the basics?
however, i dont think the REST of my system would have the resolution to be able to tell. i think im one of the only people here who is actually satisfied with my system.
why am i building amps then? arent mine good enough right now? well, its actually for a second room, im perfectly happy with my other system, i just want another for the living room
be happy with what you have when you have it. dont be happy with what you dont have when you dont have it. we live in the present. audiophiles cant seem the grasp that simple concept, even though they can hear the difference between things that shouldnt be physically possible. maybe they need to start from the basics?
Peter Daniel said:
Who knows, maybe with better parts that amp could win platinum ear award.
I can be satisfied with any system if want to. I mostly listen to my basement setup which is very simple and I like it. When I'm away on a contract job I take my boombox and I like it too. When I go away for a trip I don't listen to music for a month and I don't miss it. It all depends on the circumstances.
However, for me the most interesting thing is not really improving my system to be happy with it, but rather pushing the limits of physics and see how much more can be achieved. It is a journey which never ends, so we cannot talk here about satisfaction with a system, because it can never be achieved. It's rather ability to live together, grow together and sometimes enjoying each other (I'm talking about me and my stereo ).
However, for me the most interesting thing is not really improving my system to be happy with it, but rather pushing the limits of physics and see how much more can be achieved. It is a journey which never ends, so we cannot talk here about satisfaction with a system, because it can never be achieved. It's rather ability to live together, grow together and sometimes enjoying each other (I'm talking about me and my stereo
).MRehorst
>Does anyone have any answers to the questions I posted about swapping components, and specifically the process they use to narrow down many thousands of possible combinations to just a few worthy of testing, and then their methodology for testing and drawing conclusions about the results?<
Don't know about other audio manufacturers, but here's two posts that touch on how I do things:
From the "Removing Plastic covers from Capacitors" thread:
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=60831#post60831
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=62284#post62284
cowanrg: I will normally build the first version of a new amplifier design using normal parts. 1% tolerance resistors, low-inductance capacitors, low-noise voltage references etc. will be used, but no "audiophile specials." I will expect this version to measure quite well and sound very, very good. If not, I consider that there is something wrong with the basic design, and I will go back to the drawing board.
Once the core design is running and sounding to my satisfaction, then I will try special resistors, special capacitors, special wires, and so on. As a general rule, the contribution of these special components will be significant and sometimes even positive (g). But while I may use special parts as the icing on the cake, I will never use these to "rescue" an otherwise mediocre-sounding design, nor would I recomend doing so (it will fvck up your growth, abilities and priorities as a designer). And at times, it may make more sense to take part of the money that I had budgeted for special parts and use it instead for additional transformers, more regulators, better pcb materials, more complex wiring harnesses, and so on. Rather than having fixed ideas about what special parts I want to use, I am primarily concerned with how to allocate the total production budget (including labor as well as components) in a manner that results in the best possible objective and subjective performance.
After this stage is complete, I will expect the design to sound at state-of-the-art levels - otherwise there is no sense in releasing it to the audio market.
As far as my audio amplifier-building credentials go, I have won "best audio component of the year" in Japan for two separate designs, with a sprinkling of lesser awards here and there, and I have also received favorable reviews in English-speaking magazines like HiFi Plus, Stereophile, and TAS.
regards, jonathan carr
PS. A major problem with using parts from Radio Shack or surplus parts (that you don't the real source of) is that units from different production runs may not look the same. While this may not be a problem in the US, in a more detail-conscious market like Japan, magazines will open up the lids of your products and publish photos of the insides. If any reviewer, dealer or consumer subsequently spots something different, they will pester you for the reason for the change. "It was cheaper" is usually not regarded as an acceptable answer (g).
>Does anyone have any answers to the questions I posted about swapping components, and specifically the process they use to narrow down many thousands of possible combinations to just a few worthy of testing, and then their methodology for testing and drawing conclusions about the results?<
Don't know about other audio manufacturers, but here's two posts that touch on how I do things:
From the "Removing Plastic covers from Capacitors" thread:
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=60831#post60831
http://diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=62284#post62284
cowanrg: I will normally build the first version of a new amplifier design using normal parts. 1% tolerance resistors, low-inductance capacitors, low-noise voltage references etc. will be used, but no "audiophile specials." I will expect this version to measure quite well and sound very, very good. If not, I consider that there is something wrong with the basic design, and I will go back to the drawing board.
Once the core design is running and sounding to my satisfaction, then I will try special resistors, special capacitors, special wires, and so on. As a general rule, the contribution of these special components will be significant and sometimes even positive (g). But while I may use special parts as the icing on the cake, I will never use these to "rescue" an otherwise mediocre-sounding design, nor would I recomend doing so (it will fvck up your growth, abilities and priorities as a designer). And at times, it may make more sense to take part of the money that I had budgeted for special parts and use it instead for additional transformers, more regulators, better pcb materials, more complex wiring harnesses, and so on. Rather than having fixed ideas about what special parts I want to use, I am primarily concerned with how to allocate the total production budget (including labor as well as components) in a manner that results in the best possible objective and subjective performance.
After this stage is complete, I will expect the design to sound at state-of-the-art levels - otherwise there is no sense in releasing it to the audio market.
As far as my audio amplifier-building credentials go, I have won "best audio component of the year" in Japan for two separate designs, with a sprinkling of lesser awards here and there, and I have also received favorable reviews in English-speaking magazines like HiFi Plus, Stereophile, and TAS.
regards, jonathan carr
PS. A major problem with using parts from Radio Shack or surplus parts (that you don't the real source of) is that units from different production runs may not look the same. While this may not be a problem in the US, in a more detail-conscious market like Japan, magazines will open up the lids of your products and publish photos of the insides. If any reviewer, dealer or consumer subsequently spots something different, they will pester you for the reason for the change. "It was cheaper" is usually not regarded as an acceptable answer (g).
I lost my bobinga wood coasters...
I would just restate that giving budding audiophiles and DIY'ers the impression that they need to buy hundreds of dollars worth of "exotic" parts, or place their cd player on top of exotic animal hides, is DOING THE HOBBY A GRAVE DISSERVICE.
How many times have you heard them say 'if only they could afford the SuperDooperExpensive 5000ex-300B...'? They are no better than the person who knows nothing about gear and dreams of the Sony he will some day be able to mortgage his house for.
We are part of a long wonderful tradition of home electronics builders. This tradition is about building the best amp you've ever heard for $200, and avoiding the marketing ploys of corporations.
The definition of an engineer is "build for $50 what any idiot can build for $500."
I would just restate that giving budding audiophiles and DIY'ers the impression that they need to buy hundreds of dollars worth of "exotic" parts, or place their cd player on top of exotic animal hides, is DOING THE HOBBY A GRAVE DISSERVICE.
How many times have you heard them say 'if only they could afford the SuperDooperExpensive 5000ex-300B...'? They are no better than the person who knows nothing about gear and dreams of the Sony he will some day be able to mortgage his house for.
We are part of a long wonderful tradition of home electronics builders. This tradition is about building the best amp you've ever heard for $200, and avoiding the marketing ploys of corporations.
The definition of an engineer is "build for $50 what any idiot can build for $500."
Hey!some of my best friends are audiophiles......
"The ideal friend for an audiophile would then be an engineer foolish enough to build him that 500USD amp?"
Damn........ thought it was just my winning personality. I hope your happy! This doesn't have anything to do with beef by product necklaces, children,and dogs does it. I never could figure out why I was the only child who parents told him TO play with his food. Better put it my agenda list for the trip to the therapist next week.
Fred
"The ideal friend for an audiophile would then be an engineer foolish enough to build him that 500USD amp?"
Damn........ thought it was just my winning personality. I hope your happy! This doesn't have anything to do with beef by product necklaces, children,and dogs does it. I never could figure out why I was the only child who parents told him TO play with his food. Better put it my agenda list for the trip to the therapist next week.
Fred
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