Resistor Sound Quality? - Page 43 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Design & Build > Parts

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 3rd April 2013, 05:10 PM   #421
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by gk7 View Post
Why did you do such tests ? Aren't there enough DBTs that already have "proven" that none of the above is audible ?
Quite the contrary. It might help to read the literature. In my own testing (and that of others with me as a test rat), I was able to distinguish these things ears-only. And I don't claim any kind of golden ear status. I was just curious and I do trust my ears. See, for example, my article in Linear Audio Volume 2.
__________________
And while they may not be as strong as apes, don't lock eyes with 'em, don't do it. Puts 'em on edge. They might go into berzerker mode; come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 05:57 PM   #422
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post

Show the experiment that proves ...
Entirely possible from a poor end connection- or for inappropriate sizing for a specific circuit position. That part of what he's saying is eminently plausible. True in general of carbon film? I doubt that, but I don't think Ed claimed it, either.
__________________
And while they may not be as strong as apes, don't lock eyes with 'em, don't do it. Puts 'em on edge. They might go into berzerker mode; come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 06:09 PM   #423
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post
Please do.
Save us a lot of time and hot air.

Show the experiment that proves .

Thanks.
Already published. And your research?
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 06:14 PM   #424
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
If someone says that two different resistor brands which both measure fine show audible differences- and CLEAR audible differences- or makes sweeping claims about systematic audibility of materials, it should be easy to demonstrate that with ears only, absent clear measurable evidence. Exactly in the same way I've done ears-only tests of phase, op-amp daisy chaining, data compression... You either hear it or you don't, it's not complicated. Trust your ears.

I have no doubt that someone might be able to hear your pathological resistor if it were in a feedback network. Or an EQ network. Let's keep that as a separate issue where we agree.
You've taken all the fun out of it. The issue was with a carbon film vs another type. I actually think he misread the specs as CF usually are nowhere near 25 or 50 ppm.

Now if resistors measure the same low numbers on both AC distortion and DC excess noise, then I would be skeptical of reported differences. It is when the reports match the measurements that even without formal testing, it gets interesting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 06:55 PM   #425
gk7 is offline gk7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Vienna, Austria
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Quite the contrary. It might help to read the literature. In my own testing (and that of others with me as a test rat), I was able to distinguish these things ears-only. And I don't claim any kind of golden ear status. I was just curious and I do trust my ears. See, for example, my article in Linear Audio Volume 2.
Are your DBTs different ? Isnīt DBT the "gold standard" and infallible ?

Quote: Dr. Floyd Toole: "It turns out that, within very generous tolerances, humans are insensitive to phase shifts. Under carefully contrived circumstances, special signals auditioned in anechoic conditions, or through headphones, people have heard slight differences. However, even these limited results have failed to provide clear evidence of a 'preference' for a lack of phase shift. When auditioned in real rooms, these differences disappear.."
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 07:06 PM   #426
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by gk7 View Post
Isnīt DBT the "gold standard" and infallible ?
In order, yes and no. An out of context quote from FT is not persuasive.

You can see the phase shift test (and enjoy the spectacle of Curl frantically warning people not to try it) somewhere in the Blowtorch thread. Both Pano and I were able to successfully identify the phase-shifted tracks. The availability of the ABX plugin for foobar allows you to easily determine your own sensitivity to phase shifts (how much, what frequencies...). It was a lot of fun to do.
__________________
And while they may not be as strong as apes, don't lock eyes with 'em, don't do it. Puts 'em on edge. They might go into berzerker mode; come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2013, 07:14 PM   #427
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Auburn, WA (somewhere between Seattle and Tacoma)
Blog Entries: 1
Send a message via ICQ to Damon Hill
I've never seen a carbon film specced tighter than 1% or 200pmm Tc, or any figure given at all for voltage coefficient--but I suspect rather worse than any metal film. Same goes for carbon composition and metal oxide. That alone eliminates those resistor technologies for almost all audio applications where I get to choose parts.

Metal film, bulk foil and wirewounds can best those objective measurements by orders of magnitude, and I so use them at their best specifications when I can afford the best, or something approaching that metric. I do try to avoid magnetic parts when I can, just on some general principle but I don't always have that choice.

(Caddock apparently makes some very good resistors, and tantalum resistors might be really good too, but the latter have no objective data to back them up and the former are just hard to obtain and may be rather bulky, and both are rather expensive. So they don't make my leaderboard.)

In practice, I'd like to use .1% 25ppm at a minimum, especially in feedback, input stages and where the resistor is directly in the audio signal path. I rather like Vishay/Dale and PRP because I think they just make better quality parts. I don't really like color-banded resistors because often I can't make out the precise color bands!

Having done that, I have to hope my choices are valid, and wish I could afford really, really good speakers that might allow me to actually hear a difference with my aging, tinnitus-plagued ears. Resistors ideally should be legible, but never actually heard. Some people really seem to like carbon resistors' coloration; I want absolute neutrality.

I don't like mixing science, religion and audio, but it usually does come down to a matter of faith...
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2013, 04:39 PM   #428
diyAudio Member
 
charliemb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
This thread has been a tremendous help for me. I read it front to back and took notes. Then I went over my notes and came to the conclusion that for an I/V stage, I should consider Riken ($5), Caddock TF020 ($6), and perhaps the Kiwame ($1) which appears to be a sorted/tested KOA Speer available at Mouser for much less.

Well I started with Riken 1W since stocks are depleting and it could be my last chance to try them. Wow! These Rikens are warm, detailed, and with a very sweet and lush sounding upper mid / lower treble (think female vocal). These are fantastic.

In fact they sound so good that I don't think I'll ever get around to trying the Caddocks or the Kiwames.

I guess I should also report on the loosers (those which I removed). In an I/V application, a 1/2 watt PRP set sounded thin, overly bright, and had an electronic sounding upper mid / lower treble, almost metallic sounding. Most of this electronic edge was gone after >100 hours of break-in with pink noise, but there was still a slight signature of it. Although the PRPs were quite open and had a very large and clearly delineated soundstage, the electronic-sounding highs ruined the illusion for me. I just could not be transported to the imaginary venue, or the venue could not be transported to my living room with this constant electronic signature reminding me that I was actually listening to an audio playback system.
* * * In this I/V application, the resistors see an average of about 130 mW, with peaks to about 250mW. (if that helps)

I was actually very happy with the sound before I installed the PRPs. But I changed out these resistors because I didn't know what I had in there, and I prefer to know. I just knew they were not Vishay CMF55's as I had originally spec'd. It turns out that these were 250mW Xicon metal films. So Xicons can actually be quite good. (But the Rikens are much better, and this is with only one night of listening. Chances are good the Rikens will morph and sound even better as time goes on.)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Very very helpful and reliable. I have found that looking for and reading other's actual listening impressions on DIYaudio is reliable, particularly when folks are describing their listening impressions and when you are looking for the characteristics they specifically describe.

Last edited by charliemb; 25th May 2013 at 04:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2013, 04:55 PM   #429
Reality first!
diyAudio Member
 
ClaveFremen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milan, Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemb View Post
In fact they sound so good that I don't think I'll ever get around to trying the Caddocks or the Kiwames.
Don't bother with them (particularly Kiwames), a possible improvement can be reached with naked Vishays bulk metal foil (insanely priced).

You can try RC55Y from Mouser, though, they're really good sounding non magnetic resistors.
__________________
Dario
ClaveFremen "Bailando Salsa en el Sietch"
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2013, 07:48 PM   #430
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Java
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemb View Post
This thread has been a tremendous help for me. I read it front to back and took notes. Then I went over my notes and came to the conclusion that for an I/V stage, I should consider Riken ($5), Caddock TF020 ($6), and perhaps the Kiwame ($1) which appears to be a sorted/tested KOA Speer available at Mouser for much less.

Well I started with Riken 1W since stocks are depleting and it could be my last chance to try them. Wow! These Rikens are warm, detailed, and with a very sweet and lush sounding upper mid / lower treble (think female vocal). These are fantastic.

In fact they sound so good that I don't think I'll ever get around to trying the Caddocks or the Kiwames.

I guess I should also report on the loosers (those which I removed). In an I/V application, a 1/2 watt PRP set sounded thin, overly bright, and had an electronic sounding upper mid / lower treble, almost metallic sounding. Most of this electronic edge was gone after >100 hours of break-in with pink noise, but there was still a slight signature of it. Although the PRPs were quite open and had a very large and clearly delineated soundstage, the electronic-sounding highs ruined the illusion for me. I just could not be transported to the imaginary venue, or the venue could not be transported to my living room with this constant electronic signature reminding me that I was actually listening to an audio playback system.
* * * In this I/V application, the resistors see an average of about 130 mW, with peaks to about 250mW. (if that helps)

I was actually very happy with the sound before I installed the PRPs. But I changed out these resistors because I didn't know what I had in there, and I prefer to know. I just knew they were not Vishay CMF55's as I had originally spec'd. It turns out that these were 250mW Xicon metal films. So Xicons can actually be quite good. (But the Rikens are much better, and this is with only one night of listening. Chances are good the Rikens will morph and sound even better as time goes on.)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Very very helpful and reliable. I have found that looking for and reading other's actual listening impressions on DIYaudio is reliable, particularly when folks are describing their listening impressions and when you are looking for the characteristics they specifically describe.
riken have nice sound, I love it but I noticed recently this riken sounds bit dirtier (or bit noisy) compare to wirewound resistor (I use mills) and tants (shinkoh)
and don't ever bother of kiwame...not close enough to riken, believe me, I still have many kiwame (around 950 pcs) and not even want to use it anymore
if you use the resistor on small signal you can try TX2575 from Texas Components ....your jaw will drop
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Quality Control differences = variations in sound quality? KT Class D 3 4th June 2014 01:02 AM
Signal path Resistor Quality rtate Solid State 121 28th November 2008 08:48 PM
Resistor Sound - How is this possible??? fmak Parts 81 24th August 2003 01:38 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:54 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Đ1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2