i would be glad if you stop bitching at each other
You left out artnyos who I believe to a major instigator in this whole sorrid affair. If we base all this on listening test we will go down that road with you know who again and some wag will dare us to provide some physical reason for this sonic differences.Art and I have tried to disscuss this intelligently before certain individuals decided they had an honorary degree in physics. For the record, I have heard differences in sound from applying damping material to capacitors. I believe that removing the plastic cover can possibly lead to sonic changes from changing the mechanical damping of the capacitor body. There, that wasn't so difficult was it?
H.H.
You left out artnyos who I believe to a major instigator in this whole sorrid affair. If we base all this on listening test we will go down that road with you know who again and some wag will dare us to provide some physical reason for this sonic differences.Art and I have tried to disscuss this intelligently before certain individuals decided they had an honorary degree in physics. For the record, I have heard differences in sound from applying damping material to capacitors. I believe that removing the plastic cover can possibly lead to sonic changes from changing the mechanical damping of the capacitor body. There, that wasn't so difficult was it?
H.H.
dice45 said:All,
i would be glad if you stop bitching at each other.
Steve,
i am still lost about what your point is in this thread. If your point is not confusing others. Are you out to save the world? Means make the world look at things the way you do?
Save the world. Where the hell does THAT come from?
If someone says that Ohm's Law for current is I = E x R, and I reply saying no, it's I = E/R, am I somehow out to save the world?
Look, apparently some people involved in this thread have an interest in pondering possible physical reasons for the purported results. And to that end, some possible reasons have been offered up. All I have done is respond with my own critical analysis.
Can you please explain what is wrong with that?
If you don't want physical reasons to be discussed, then wouldn't it make sense to simply not allow them to be offered up in the first place?
Why not just make a rule against any discussion of physics? That would put everything on a purely subjective plane and there would simply be nothing to argue.
Works for me. In case you hadn't noticed, I wasn't the one doing the speculating.
se
Steve,
i see, i must write in capital letters.
i have crawled thru your lengthy posts several times now and still get lost in what you mean. I do not see your point.
That you see your point is obvious. Just i don't, and i wonder if everybody else does, judging on some confused responses.
I am not against discussing physics, an not against speculating about possible reasons why an equipment change yields a sonic change or fails to yield an expected one . I am the 1st in cutting in if Ohm's law is mixed up, no, the 2nd, Harry is 1st) ) . I use my considerable understanding of physics not to reason about why i should (not) do an experiment, i perform the experiment and after i got results, i start to speculate about possible physical explanations. The fact that someone suggested an experiment in connection with a possibly flawed physical explanation does not make me question his suggestion, instead it makes me curious and i perform the experiment myself. And then, i look for explanations.
But if someone starts to lecture, to rule how i should speculate, judge, discuss, look at things, perform listening tests and so on, if he denies my right to do it my way and to the completeness and consequence and perfection suiting to me,
, i may jump at him at the moment i choose and bite his throat, not caring if my teeth hit the spine. And i would understand it if other members develop similar moods on this. I am just supposed not to let such happen as i am wearing that damned moderator badge.
IMO you occupy the topic by trying to force anyone to look that the things the way you do. You try to force your terms and concepts on others (i have observed this in other threads, too). You are fanatic on your point and if even if your point is about being non-fanatic, you are fanatic about that! IMO.
Devastating result: bitching and back-bitching and you defend your philosophical hogwash instead of the group discussing the topic of the original threadstarters and those interested in possible practical results.
Facts. Sad facts.
And after my 1st attempt to calm the struggle down, the same mess again 2 pages later. With your compulsion to adress any point, to have the last word, to prove you are right. Man, look in the mirror!
May i give you a hint? Let your most respected female read your posts in this thread and let her judge it, let her tell you how she perceives how you said what you had to say. Do not mix up content with how the content is presented.
You may have observed that some of my audio preferences are quite close to your ones and i have taken care you can observe it. For the record, i am not biased against your findings and POVs, in fact i share many of them. I am biased against force-feeding and threadjacking.
See rules and moderator statement.
Harry,
would you please let me do sin bin think, ok? At the moment sin bin is last thing that crosses my mind. I want you folks to get along without handing out the public whipping post every other day.
-----------------
Bernhard
(dice45, diyAudio moderator)
i see, i must write in capital letters.
i have crawled thru your lengthy posts several times now and still get lost in what you mean. I do not see your point.
That you see your point is obvious. Just i don't, and i wonder if everybody else does, judging on some confused responses.
I am not against discussing physics, an not against speculating about possible reasons why an equipment change yields a sonic change or fails to yield an expected one . I am the 1st in cutting in if Ohm's law is mixed up, no, the 2nd, Harry is 1st
) ) . I use my considerable understanding of physics not to reason about why i should (not) do an experiment, i perform the experiment and after i got results, i start to speculate about possible physical explanations. The fact that someone suggested an experiment in connection with a possibly flawed physical explanation does not make me question his suggestion, instead it makes me curious and i perform the experiment myself. And then, i look for explanations.But if someone starts to lecture, to rule how i should speculate, judge, discuss, look at things, perform listening tests and so on, if he denies my right to do it my way and to the completeness and consequence and perfection suiting to me,
, i may jump at him at the moment i choose and bite his throat, not caring if my teeth hit the spine. And i would understand it if other members develop similar moods on this. I am just supposed not to let such happen as i am wearing that damned moderator badge.IMO you occupy the topic by trying to force anyone to look that the things the way you do. You try to force your terms and concepts on others (i have observed this in other threads, too). You are fanatic on your point and if even if your point is about being non-fanatic, you are fanatic about that! IMO.
Devastating result: bitching and back-bitching and you defend your philosophical hogwash instead of the group discussing the topic of the original threadstarters and those interested in possible practical results.
Facts. Sad facts.
And after my 1st attempt to calm the struggle down, the same mess again 2 pages later. With your compulsion to adress any point, to have the last word, to prove you are right. Man, look in the mirror!
May i give you a hint? Let your most respected female read your posts in this thread and let her judge it, let her tell you how she perceives how you said what you had to say. Do not mix up content with how the content is presented.
You may have observed that some of my audio preferences are quite close to your ones and i have taken care you can observe it. For the record, i am not biased against your findings and POVs, in fact i share many of them. I am biased against force-feeding and threadjacking.
See rules and moderator statement.
Harry,
would you please let me do sin bin think, ok? At the moment sin bin is last thing that crosses my mind. I want you folks to get along without handing out the public whipping post every other day.
-----------------
Bernhard
(dice45, diyAudio moderator)
dice45 said:
Yes, you've said that at least twice before. And at least twice before I've asked that you quote anything I've said that you're confused about and that I would do what I can to explain or otherwise clarify it.
So far, you haven't done so.
I'm trying to be as accommodating as I possibly can but I can't hope to try and clarify something if I don't know specifically what it is that's causing you confusion.
What more can I do? I don't care to try and second guess because that just causes more confusion. And I think the problem here is that you and some others are trying to second guess me and coming to some rather far flung conclusions as a result.
Tell you what, why don't you just tell me what it is you THINK I'm trying to say? Then I can at least tell you if you're on the mark or not.
I am not against discussing physics, an not against speculating about possible reasons why an equipment change yields a sonic change or fails to yield an expected one . I am the 1st in cutting in if Ohm's law is mixed up, no, the 2nd, Harry is 1st
Then I fail to see why anything I've said has caused any problem as I'm doing nothing more than that.
You seem to be saying here that I AM using my understanding of physics to reason why others should not do an experiment.
And if that's what you believe, you're WAY off base. What I have said with regard to physics has ABSOLTELY NO IMPLICATIONS WHATSOEVER with regard to anyone not trying things for themsleves.
I NEVER discourage people from trying things (unless they pose a significant safey risk) so anything you might be reading into my words along those lines you can just forget about.
And I'm not questioning his suggestion either! What I said with regard to the physics was completely separate from his suggestion.
Look, I don't pussy-foot around or mealy-mouth when I want to say something. If I were questioning the suggestion of giving it a try, I'd simply say something along the lines of "I think it would be silly to give it a try." I wouldn't weasel around it with some implication regarding the physics aspect.
Again, much of the "friction" here seems to be the result of people trying to infer things from what I write that simply aren't there.
So let me just say for the record:
I THINK EVERYONE INTERESTED SHOULD TRY SKINNING THEIR CAPS AND GO WITH WHATEVER WORKS!
But if someone starts to lecture, to rule how i should speculate, judge, discuss, look at things, perform listening tests and so on, if he denies my right to do it my way and to the completeness and consequence and perfection suiting to me,
How on earth could ANYONE deny anyone else that right? Good lord, all this is is nothing but words on a page. Words that no one is even forced to read in the first place.
How could I force ANYTHING on ANYONE even if that's what I WANTED to do? Again, all we have here are words on a page that no one is forced to read or reply to.
All I'm doing is speaking my mind the same as everyone else is. I don't expect my words to have any inherently greater worth or significance than anyone else's. Nor do I expect anyone to agree with anything I say. Anything you may think otherwise is of your own creation.
The bitching stems from my writing something and people responding as if I'd said something entirely different. Which stems from the defensive attitude of some here who seem to try and read things into what I write which simply aren't there.
So why should I be taking the heat for the prejudice of others?
What exactly is the struggle other than my struggle against people putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head which simply don't exist?
HOW I say things depends a lot on my level of frustration. And I have to say that my level of frustration here has been rather high.
Look, I've been messaging like this on audio topics for nearly 20 years. From CEFORUM on CompuServe, to The Audiophile Network BBS, to the rec.audio newsgroups, etc. In all those years I've never had the problem of people completely misunderstanding what I've said than I have here.
I've had a fair share of disagreement with what I've said over the years, but except on rather rare occasion, those who disagreed disagreed with what I actually said.
So before trying to lay all of this on my doorstep, I simply ask that you consider that perhaps some people here are just a bit too defensive and prone to jump to erroneous and premature conclusions because of it.
Well again, I don't see how anyone can force-feed anyone else anything here.
As for threadjacking, I'd never even heard of the term until I arrived here. Once I discovered what it was, I have kept my discussion in this thread limited to the issue of cap skinning.
se
Hello,
Imagine a new member spitting through all this hostile words because the fist thread did draw his attention. All i know that in coupling capacitors there have been good results in applying it. Let us wait untill the first person rises who will give it a try and report the results to the other. Ed
Imagine a new member spitting through all this hostile words because the fist thread did draw his attention. All i know that in coupling capacitors there have been good results in applying it. Let us wait untill the first person rises who will give it a try and report the results to the other. Ed
steve's words:
'For example, the United Chemi-Con KMH series electrolytics have a leakage current of IL (in uA) = 0.02CV. Their 63 volt, 27,000 uF cap with 63 volts across it would exhibit a leakage current of about 34 milliamps. Which is tantamount to the electrolyte having a resistance of about 1,850 ohms.'
the figure of 34mA or 1850ohms is so ridiculously out of range that it may cast a serious shadow of doubt over your other statements.
peter
skinning caps for lunch
'For example, the United Chemi-Con KMH series electrolytics have a leakage current of IL (in uA) = 0.02CV. Their 63 volt, 27,000 uF cap with 63 volts across it would exhibit a leakage current of about 34 milliamps. Which is tantamount to the electrolyte having a resistance of about 1,850 ohms.'
the figure of 34mA or 1850ohms is so ridiculously out of range that it may cast a serious shadow of doubt over your other statements.
peter
skinning caps for lunch
Steve,
for the record, you registered on Sept.13 2002 and have already made 112 posts, 12.8 a day and most of them quite lengthy.
You make me (and otheres) drown in your Sargasso Sea of words, many of them defensive and self-opinionated drivel and few valid statements sprinkled between them and i simply get exhausted in separating one from the other.
You obviously have no clue how you are perceived by others. You obvioulsy have no clue how often your statements seem to contradict others of your statements. And if other members try to rub your nose into that, you refuse to perceive it.
You enjoy to object, almost unimportant against what, provided you can object to it. Compulsive objecting. Even if you agree, you manage to let it sound as if you object. You peck at others, ok, they peck back . And the reader has to separate a lot of defensive talk from a few statements making sense.
You had your share of this discussion.
moderator order: back out of this thread.
dice45
(diyAudio moderator)
for the record, you registered on Sept.13 2002 and have already made 112 posts, 12.8 a day and most of them quite lengthy.
You make me (and otheres) drown in your Sargasso Sea of words, many of them defensive and self-opinionated drivel and few valid statements sprinkled between them and i simply get exhausted in separating one from the other.
You obviously have no clue how you are perceived by others. You obvioulsy have no clue how often your statements seem to contradict others of your statements. And if other members try to rub your nose into that, you refuse to perceive it.
You enjoy to object, almost unimportant against what, provided you can object to it. Compulsive objecting. Even if you agree, you manage to let it sound as if you object. You peck at others, ok, they peck back . And the reader has to separate a lot of defensive talk from a few statements making sense.
You had your share of this discussion.
moderator order: back out of this thread.dice45
(diyAudio moderator)
I miss the good old days of gratuitous images of fat cats, dogs and Brittany Spears.
Steve all I can say is lighten up, Harry usually knows what he is talking about as much as I hate to admit it but I still think he uses green led's because he likes to light up his pcboards like Christmas trees.
Jam
Steve all I can say is lighten up, Harry usually knows what he is talking about as much as I hate to admit it but I still think he uses green led's because he likes to light up his pcboards like Christmas trees.
Jam
OK, this was a thread!
Still, way back I tried to get the facts, didn't get any or lost them somewhere.
I went a selling course (years ago) and there where three letters, E F I, brainwashed into my head:
E (egenskaper), properties: What are you doing, how and the result? Which components are effected and what have you done with them?
F (fördelar), benefits: What do you acheive compared to do nothing?
I (innebörd), what does it mean for YOU?
I haven't succeed to sort the facts out in this gigantic thread. I can can understand if all of you are tired and don't want to discuss this matter anymore.
Still, way back I tried to get the facts, didn't get any or lost them somewhere.
I went a selling course (years ago) and there where three letters, E F I, brainwashed into my head:
E (egenskaper), properties: What are you doing, how and the result? Which components are effected and what have you done with them?
F (fördelar), benefits: What do you acheive compared to do nothing?
I (innebörd), what does it mean for YOU?
I haven't succeed to sort the facts out in this gigantic thread. I can can understand if all of you are tired and don't want to discuss this matter anymore.
FIE
This was what they guy wanted to know:
Removing Plastic covers from Capacitors
Hi there,
I read at tip at the website of referenceaudiomods.com claiming that removing the plastic covers from capacitors gives greater performance...
Does anyone know this to be true?
If so what types of improvements were noted and what is the reason for this phenomenon?
Can you answer his questions?
Ren
This was what they guy wanted to know:
Removing Plastic covers from Capacitors
Hi there,
I read at tip at the website of referenceaudiomods.com claiming that removing the plastic covers from capacitors gives greater performance...
Does anyone know this to be true?
If so what types of improvements were noted and what is the reason for this phenomenon?
Can you answer his questions?
Ren
I just tried skinning if anyone still cares. The most easily accessible caps were a pair of generic panasonics in my gainclone. They are fastened by metal braces so in order to isolate them after skinning i used layers of ptfe plumber's tape. Listened before and after the application of the tape and couldn't hear a difference.
The skinning clearly improved the sound in dynamics and subjective volume - not a huge difference, but well worth it. Didn't quite elevate the panasonics to black gate level though. I find it very unlikely that the improvement has anything to do with damping, as i couldn't hear the effects of several layers of ptfe tape which surely provides much higher damping than the original 'skins'
peter
The skinning clearly improved the sound in dynamics and subjective volume - not a huge difference, but well worth it. Didn't quite elevate the panasonics to black gate level though. I find it very unlikely that the improvement has anything to do with damping, as i couldn't hear the effects of several layers of ptfe tape which surely provides much higher damping than the original 'skins'
peter
Ren,
if i could, i would have answered.
I think one has to try it out, both with 'lytics and with foil caps. I intend to do so, as soon as i find the time and an appropriate amp.
At the moment i am blocked with TT stuff.
What i can do to serve public curiosity. Tomorrow i meet a public component guru; he does tests like this all the time. I will make him curious; if i can get him to try it out, we get 1st results. Ok?
Dtopic,
in our moderator post trash bin, i found a post from you asking us moderators to lighten up. I felt adressed and want to tell you, i am trying and succeeding better everyday ... just, now and then there are things we cannot let pass because the problems grow then.
if i could, i would have answered.
I think one has to try it out, both with 'lytics and with foil caps. I intend to do so, as soon as i find the time and an appropriate amp.
At the moment i am blocked with TT stuff.
What i can do to serve public curiosity. Tomorrow i meet a public component guru; he does tests like this all the time. I will make him curious; if i can get him to try it out, we get 1st results. Ok?
Dtopic,
in our moderator post trash bin, i found a post from you asking us moderators to lighten up. I felt adressed and want to tell you, i am trying and succeeding better everyday
... just, now and then there are things we cannot let pass because the problems grow then.Damping
"Didn't quite elevate the panasonics to black gate level though. I find it very unlikely that the improvement has anything to do with damping, as i couldn't hear the effects of several layers of ptfe tape which surely provides much higher damping than the original 'skins'"
I disagree try putting some damping material on the end of the cap as well.
Sin Bin by Sundown,
Ren
"Didn't quite elevate the panasonics to black gate level though. I find it very unlikely that the improvement has anything to do with damping, as i couldn't hear the effects of several layers of ptfe tape which surely provides much higher damping than the original 'skins'"
I disagree try putting some damping material on the end of the cap as well.
Sin Bin by Sundown,
Ren
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