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Old 17th September 2002, 12:24 AM   #91
jcarr is offline jcarr  United States
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I agree with Ric Schultz. Why don't you just try it and quit arguing about something that you don't have any experience with (unless you enjoy arguing more than building).

I am an audio manufacturer, and this is what I do in situations like this. I build at least two identical sets of amplifiers, and change only the part(s) that you are interested in - could be a new resistor, a new capacitor, same capacitor but with peeled sleeve, or whatever. If you changing something which isn't visibly obvious - like solder - write a description somewhere inside the chassis. Give the two (or more) amplifier sets to someone else, and ask them to mark the amplifiers as arbitrary numbers or letters (so you don't know what is what). Ask a third person to set up a 10-cycle (or more) sequence (of their own liking - the only conditions are that each amplifier set must appear in the sequence at least once, and the sequence should not be in strict alternation). Ask a fourth person to put the amplifiers into your system according to the sequence, while you take listening notes. Use as much time as you like.

At the end of the test, open up the amplifiers and compare their contents with your listening notes.

Theory is important, but so is empirical experience. All action and no thought isn't good, but likewise for all thought (and arguing) and no action.

regards, jonathan carr
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Old 17th September 2002, 01:22 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by jcarr
I agree with Ric Schultz. Why don't you just try it and quit arguing about something that you don't have any experience with (unless you enjoy arguing more than building).
So why don't people just stick to saying "Just try it" instead of making objective claims with regard to physics and actual objective audibility? "Just try it" does nothing whatsoever to substantiate such objective claims. So why make them in the first place?

I'm sorry, but I find the logic quite bizarre.

A: Hey, I just bought this little black box that made my system sound much better.

B: Yeah? What's it do?

A: (instead of skpping to "Just try it" makes an objective claim)There are little fairies inside the box that clean up the audio signal.

B: There are no such things as fairies.

A: (indignant that his objective claim of fairies was challenged) Just try it!

As if B having tried it found it did make his system sound better to him that this would somehow establish the fact that there were indeed fairies inside the box.

Bottom line, if one has no interest in getting at some objective truth, then don't make any false pretense of it by making objective claims.

If one does have an interest in getting at some objective truth, then don't whine and cry when your objective claims are questioned or otherwise challenged. That's part of the process of getting at the truth.

se
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Old 17th September 2002, 01:23 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy




Why not just become a Zen Hedonist like myself, not give a rat's ***, and just enjoy??



This is the longest post I've ever seen. If you really mean what you say you wouldn't waste your time this way.

I personally, didn't even bother to read it through.
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:08 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel

This is the longest post I've ever seen. If you really mean what you say you wouldn't waste your time this way.
Perhaps it is a waste of time. But I think perhaps someday I might be able to understand the illogic, dogma and closedmindness that leaves me puzzled. Though I'm not sure what difference it would make if I did understand it. Just color me curious.

se
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:26 AM   #95
artnyos is offline artnyos  United States
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Default Perhaps it is a waste of time

Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla

One wonders if you could ever stop talking long enough to hear anything. Just not curious enough to try some thing that is not that big of a stretch to be plausible.

Art
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:26 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Eddy


But I think perhaps someday I might be able to understand the illogic, dogma and closedmindness that leaves me puzzled.
But think about us, by reading your posts we are getting even more puzzled.
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:35 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Daniel


But think about us, by reading your posts we are getting even more puzzled.
Puzzled? Well sure. Just look at my avatar. It IS a puzzle.

What exactly is puzzling you about me? If you've any questions you'd like answered, just ask. I'll be happy to answer as clearly and unpuzzlingly as possible.

se
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:40 AM   #98
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Default OK let me try.

What is the sound of one transistor clapping?
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:53 AM   #99
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I expect that I am not the only one around here who is a bit tired of the arguments dismissing the ability of the experienced listener to distinguish minor or subtle changes to a system and ascribe these percieved differences to bias.

I've been dealing with audio for more than 25 yrs, and I find no trouble in discerning tiny changes immediately.

I find that after making such changes and listening to music that I know intimately these changes are clearly aparrent.
If I prefer the change I regard the experiment as a benefit, and not all changes are beneficial.

I find this is a case of listening with and believing ones ears, and there is nobody who can convince me that imagination plays a part to experienced ears.

I also find women to be more discerning and descriptive of sonics changes than the typical male.

The bottom line is all about making a system sonically more correct, or at least more enjoyable.

BTW 10 years ago I did try the experiment of removing cap coverings, and I did hear differences, but as I recall I did not regard it as hugely beneficial.

Eric.
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Old 17th September 2002, 02:59 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrfeedback
I expect that I am not the only one around here who is a bit tired of the arguments dismissing the ability of the experienced listener to distinguish minor or subtle changes to a system and ascribe these percieved differences to bias.
Except that I'm NOT dismissing it. NOR am I ascribing perceived differences to bias. Where on earth do you get the idea that I am? Could you please do the the favor of quoting EXACTLY what I've said that has lead you to such an erroneous conclusion?

se
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