http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dllViewItem&category=3280&item=5703455404&rd=1
Ebay Quote: "Unique Insulation
For electrical signal reproduction, insulators with the lowest dielectric constant minimize the distortion of the music by the insulator. Jena Labs uses the best dielectric material (Teflon), with special modifications that exclude the element Fluorine. This is beneficial in many ways. The cables are clear, flexible and easy to work with, and removing fluorine has is very good for the environment. "
Dupont (Makers of Teflon) Quote: "The original form of Teflon® is polytetrafluoroethylene, or PTFE. The molecular structure of Teflon® is based on a chain of carbon atoms, the same as all polymers. Unlike some other fluoropolymers, in Teflon® this chain is completely surrounded by fluorine atoms. The bond between carbon and fluorine is very strong, and the fluorine atoms shield the vulnerable carbon chain. This unusual structure gives Teflon® its unique properties. In addition to its extreme slipperiness, it is inert to almost every known chemical."
Is it me, or are these quotes mutually exclusive?
Ebay Quote: "Unique Insulation
For electrical signal reproduction, insulators with the lowest dielectric constant minimize the distortion of the music by the insulator. Jena Labs uses the best dielectric material (Teflon), with special modifications that exclude the element Fluorine. This is beneficial in many ways. The cables are clear, flexible and easy to work with, and removing fluorine has is very good for the environment. "
Dupont (Makers of Teflon) Quote: "The original form of Teflon® is polytetrafluoroethylene, or PTFE. The molecular structure of Teflon® is based on a chain of carbon atoms, the same as all polymers. Unlike some other fluoropolymers, in Teflon® this chain is completely surrounded by fluorine atoms. The bond between carbon and fluorine is very strong, and the fluorine atoms shield the vulnerable carbon chain. This unusual structure gives Teflon® its unique properties. In addition to its extreme slipperiness, it is inert to almost every known chemical."
Is it me, or are these quotes mutually exclusive?
The Jena quote is... questionable. Though that seems to be the norm among cable peddlers. Elemental fluorine? That's probably the most reactive substance around (and deadly toxic), so it's doubtful in the extreme that there's any in Teflon. There are fluorine atoms bound to the chain, but they're nearly impossible to remove because the bond energy is so high- that's why Teflon is so extremely unreactive. You can get it to react SLIGHTLY with things like sodium naphthalide (which spontaneously explodes in air, so it's not likely to be found around the house), or combust at VERY high temperatures, but that's about it.
I think there's some price justification and puffing going on by Jena. Slimy. The statement about dielectric constant is false, too (note that polypropylene has a lower dielectric constant than Teflon...).
Run away.
I think there's some price justification and puffing going on by Jena. Slimy. The statement about dielectric constant is false, too (note that polypropylene has a lower dielectric constant than Teflon...).
Run away.
Slimy?
Sy, with respect, do you think it good taste for a member, let alone a moderator, to call a commercial enterprise "slimy"? I mean, this is a public audio forum, Jena Labs makes its living selling audio gear and statements like "slimy" are reasonably seen to harm the image and reputation of Jena in the eyes of a casual observer. This latter constitutes a good working definition of libel.
And especially when you get certain of the facts quite wrong. The dielectric constant of teflon is 10% lower than that of polypropylene in every definition I've seen.
Other moderators, is any of this a concern to you?
Sy, with respect, do you think it good taste for a member, let alone a moderator, to call a commercial enterprise "slimy"? I mean, this is a public audio forum, Jena Labs makes its living selling audio gear and statements like "slimy" are reasonably seen to harm the image and reputation of Jena in the eyes of a casual observer. This latter constitutes a good working definition of libel.
And especially when you get certain of the facts quite wrong. The dielectric constant of teflon is 10% lower than that of polypropylene in every definition I've seen.
Other moderators, is any of this a concern to you?
Sy, you're in California, aren't you?
"A libel is a defamation expressed in written or other graphic form that tends to blacken the memory of the dead or that tends to injure a living person's reputation and thereby expose the person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or financial injury or to impeach any person's honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation." (California Statues, Sec. 73.001, 1995)
You might check out the following site:
http://www-cs-education.stanford.edu/classes/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/index2.html
"A libel is a defamation expressed in written or other graphic form that tends to blacken the memory of the dead or that tends to injure a living person's reputation and thereby expose the person to public hatred, contempt or ridicule, or financial injury or to impeach any person's honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation." (California Statues, Sec. 73.001, 1995)
You might check out the following site:
http://www-cs-education.stanford.edu/classes/cs201/Projects/defamation-and-the-internet/index2.html
I'm always available for service. Thanks for the advice, but I'm not shaking with fear of Jena's high-power legal team.
People who talk to the dead for a fee? Slimy.
Peddlers of perpetual motion and free energy schemes? Slimy.
Televangelists using old ladies' Social Security checks to buy mansions and limos? Slimy.
People who make pseudoscientific claims to sell products? Slimy.
serengetiplains,
with all due respect, i thought i'd just add my two cents.
if sy had made his defamatory comments about a product marketed through factual evidence, then ok, that's not fair. BUT, if the product he is defaming is marketed based on non-factual information, making untrue claims as to why their product is better than similar products from other companies (such as how they 'exclude the element flourine'), then this is in a way the company in question defaming other companies, and therefore deserves the same back. only difference between what sy said and what jena labs said is what sy said was true. therefore, not only is sy in the right to make these coments and is in no way unfairly defaming jena labs, he is actually doing other honest, competitor companies a favour at the same time.
keep it real
with all due respect, i thought i'd just add my two cents.
if sy had made his defamatory comments about a product marketed through factual evidence, then ok, that's not fair. BUT, if the product he is defaming is marketed based on non-factual information, making untrue claims as to why their product is better than similar products from other companies (such as how they 'exclude the element flourine'), then this is in a way the company in question defaming other companies, and therefore deserves the same back. only difference between what sy said and what jena labs said is what sy said was true. therefore, not only is sy in the right to make these coments and is in no way unfairly defaming jena labs, he is actually doing other honest, competitor companies a favour at the same time.
keep it real
I haven't defamed any product. I've never seen, handled, used, tried, bought, disparaged, complimented, or looked in the general direction of this or any other Jena product. I merely state my personal opinion about the way these products are sold, and by implication, my impression of that company.
... and therefore you are having some effect on the public image of this company by stating opinions and impressions. this can be either defamatory or complementary... if you can somehow justify that what you originally said about jena was a neutral and objective coment, then in that case there was no influence on public image, and therefore it was neither defamatory or otherwise.
also,
for a person to be able to derive an implication from what someone has said takes at least a little bit of perception... i don't see what perception is needed to understand what is meant when you refer to a companies marketing scheme as 'slimy'... i mean, in all fairness, that was a pretty subtle coment wasn't it??? (not!)
so all i'm saying is what you said was defamatory, but i think that the context it was in, it was justified.
cheers
benny said:
Benny, I appreciate you expressing the point I was making. Sy took an eBay quote probably not authored by Jena, assumed the quote in some way reflected Jena's manufacturing and marketing process, performed some quick mental machinations on some hypothetical chemical process, suggested that process was improbable, then called Jena "Slimy." He then admitted he knows little or nothing about the company or their products, but is apparently happy to leave the impression or implication that Jena employs deceptive means to sell their products.
My broader point, here, is to express my vote for moderators stepping into a more mature discharge of their role. Sy apparently is uninterested in what this means in this instance.
well if it was in fact something someone unconected with jena had written
i guess sy is in the wrong.
i guess this is a bit contentious here. i think it is a bit like the fine line between informing and advertising that must be drawn. i think this is a fine line between misinterperatation and misinformation.
if you disagree with something the moderators do
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=412570#post412570
go there and suport the proposal in my last paragraph of my post, and add your own ideas onto it. the only way people not happy with the moderators are able to make a change is to all agree and suport change.
personally i think in nearly all cases the moderators are doing a good job, but in some cases, as this may posibly be i think they can forget the power they hold and that they should be presenting us with a suitable role model to follow.
cheers
i guess sy is in the wrong.
i guess this is a bit contentious here. i think it is a bit like the fine line between informing and advertising that must be drawn. i think this is a fine line between misinterperatation and misinformation.
if you disagree with something the moderators do
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=412570#post412570
go there and suport the proposal in my last paragraph of my post, and add your own ideas onto it. the only way people not happy with the moderators are able to make a change is to all agree and suport change.
personally i think in nearly all cases the moderators are doing a good job, but in some cases, as this may posibly be i think they can forget the power they hold and that they should be presenting us with a suitable role model to follow.
cheers
Has everyone lost there minds?
A low insulin level maybe to blame!
Let’s get some food! Am buying ok,
Everybody and I mean everybody is entitled to there own opinions, rightly or wrongly, we are not on trial and we are not being brain washed, we have the ability to listen and judge for ourselves, This is quite upsetting to read this verbal jousting, its not nice, its not constructive, I would expect this from teenagers not grown men.
People have to sell and the spin can be a little much, fair enough, I don’t like it who does, its life!!!
This forum is not about who knows more! Its about ideas and helping others with questions and general information exchange, some very good people have left as its not as fun as it used to be, I have always just read the threads but I don’t like it when so called adults kick off with each other! Let just all share what we know and have fun, The UK forum as terrible for this! That’s why am in the forum, is more interesting and I just don’t feel the ego, please lets all stay positive and constructive.
It brings out the best in us all. Troy
A low insulin level maybe to blame!
Let’s get some food! Am buying ok,
Everybody and I mean everybody is entitled to there own opinions, rightly or wrongly, we are not on trial and we are not being brain washed, we have the ability to listen and judge for ourselves, This is quite upsetting to read this verbal jousting, its not nice, its not constructive, I would expect this from teenagers not grown men.
People have to sell and the spin can be a little much, fair enough, I don’t like it who does, its life!!!
This forum is not about who knows more! Its about ideas and helping others with questions and general information exchange, some very good people have left as its not as fun as it used to be, I have always just read the threads but I don’t like it when so called adults kick off with each other! Let just all share what we know and have fun, The UK forum as terrible for this! That’s why am in the forum, is more interesting and I just don’t feel the ego, please lets all stay positive and constructive.
It brings out the best in us all. Troy
i guess that's why you got what you got... does being 17 years old clasify me as a teenager???
i think the initial issue was raised because a moderator made what could be considered a 'personal attack'. personal attacks arent aloud on this forum i don't think... not sure... (joke)
anyway, the discusion surounding this has remained civilised, and therefor there should be no problem. it's not what i'd call 'verbal jousting'...
agreed, but it is not about sitting back and taking a non active role in something you don't agree with... we're hear to discuss. Sy has his opinions on the cable, and the rest have opinions on what he says. no one on this thread is any more in the wrong than what you are. by entering the discussion, and giving an opinion at the same time, you are doing the same as what you're acusing us of. do you consider yourself to be doing anything wrong??? i don't consider you to be doing anything wrong, as i don't consider this discussion to be wrong.
cheers
benny said:
Benny, the first quotation appearing in the first post of this thread appears in a UK eBay advertisement selling used Jena speaker cables.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3280&item=5703455404&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Jena Labs very probably did not author the paragraph concerned.
From a Positive Feedback review of the Jena Labs Symphony speaker cables and interconnects:
Each 18 gauge wire consists of 127 ultra fine copper strands encased in a transparent material she says is "similar" to Teflon, but without the fluorine (apparently fluorine is a bad thing).
Wasn't able to find anything on the Jena Labs website that stated anything about the insulation used for the cables.
se
Each 18 gauge wire consists of 127 ultra fine copper strands encased in a transparent material she says is "similar" to Teflon, but without the fluorine (apparently fluorine is a bad thing).
Wasn't able to find anything on the Jena Labs website that stated anything about the insulation used for the cables.
se
I dont think SY said anything bad at all, i think this is snowballing into a big nothing, I like the Cable if anybody gives a hoot!, i dont know about its specs but it wont out do my cable! so there! anyway, fear factor is on and its an all female contestants today, so by lads, and calm down, its only TV my dear, who said that?
Hi.
The text on ebay is copied from here:
http://www.solarhifi.com/cables.php
which is one of the links on JenaLabs links page here:
http://www.jenalabs.com/pages/friendsofjenalabs.html
Regards,
J.Guilherme
The text on ebay is copied from here:
http://www.solarhifi.com/cables.php
which is one of the links on JenaLabs links page here:
http://www.jenalabs.com/pages/friendsofjenalabs.html
Regards,
J.Guilherme
maybe this discussion is turning into one about ethics?
if infact it is from an article written from someone not asociated with jena, but jena still published it on their website, jena is still ethically wrong to do so if they know it contains false information. this is a crude way of making false advertising claims without the risk of being called a fraud. baisically, if jena published any material on it's website containing false claims, then are they or aren't they wrong?
it's not really a big load of nothing this... what's wrong with discussing ethics?
cheers
if infact it is from an article written from someone not asociated with jena, but jena still published it on their website, jena is still ethically wrong to do so if they know it contains false information. this is a crude way of making false advertising claims without the risk of being called a fraud. baisically, if jena published any material on it's website containing false claims, then are they or aren't they wrong?
it's not really a big load of nothing this... what's wrong with discussing ethics?
cheers
For what it's worth, I believe Jena Labs uses polyethylene as their cable dielectric which, in a manner of speaking, = PTFE minus TF. If Solar Hi-Fi calls polyethylene flourine-removed teflon, well, that's their prerogative. Attributing anything Solar Hi-Fi or any eBayer says to a commercial enterprise is another matter.
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