Crossover caps
Grey is right the Solens bypassed with a 0.1 Polystrene are very good. I like MITs and Relcap polypropelynes by passed by small polystyrenes. Hovlands are excellent but you can pay some pretty silly money here. Biamping starts to look real attractive for us DIY amp builders and may be cheaper. I like 4th order Linkwitz active crossovers.
Grey is right the Solens bypassed with a 0.1 Polystrene are very good. I like MITs and Relcap polypropelynes by passed by small polystyrenes. Hovlands are excellent but you can pay some pretty silly money here. Biamping starts to look real attractive for us DIY amp builders and may be cheaper. I like 4th order Linkwitz active crossovers.
------------------------------------------------jgwinner said:
Yes, but only certain types and applications show up their advantages. To me, they are:
1. The expensive FK type for coupling with dc bias. Rotel uses them for the Michi range and they do sound better than Elnas or Panasonics premium types. They also measure better for tan delta.
2. N types for non polar applications. They too sound good.
Caveat is that they are used only when there is no space for non electrolytics.
The indiscriminate use of BG advocated by sellers just costs you a lot of money.
If you have access to Electronics World & Wireless World, please, read all the articles of Mr. Cyril Bateman about capacitors.
Also any very intersting about measures in loudspeaker cables.
If you wait any time, in June or July, Mr Cyril Bateman plain publishe in EW&WW a series of six articles about distortion in capacitors.
I maintain any correspondence with Mr. from any years, and I can read any parts of this articles. Naturally I cannot advance nothing before that the articles are publishing, but I thing that are the best work about capacitors that I have read.
Endurance!
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
Also any very intersting about measures in loudspeaker cables.
If you wait any time, in June or July, Mr Cyril Bateman plain publishe in EW&WW a series of six articles about distortion in capacitors.
I maintain any correspondence with Mr. from any years, and I can read any parts of this articles. Naturally I cannot advance nothing before that the articles are publishing, but I thing that are the best work about capacitors that I have read.
Endurance!
Happy days,
Raúl Couto
Their website .. www.blackgate.jp
Still it is only sales stuff. Where they say that their caps go to 10GHz ... Is this why we see them every where in HF equipment (joke).
Sonny
Still it is only sales stuff. Where they say that their caps go to 10GHz ... Is this why we see them every where in HF equipment (joke).
Sonny
JG:
Normally, I would find the humour in your tactics. But the timing could not have been worse.
Maybe you didn't get the response you sought because:
1.) No one was interested. A possibilty.
2.) No one has used them. A bit too pricey for most, and perhaps no one wanted to admit they can't afford them.
I have never used them. I go out of my way to avoid over-priced, hard-to-get stuff unless there is a valid reason to use them. No one has demonstrated a reason to use them. They might be good, might be junk. Doesn't matter much to me either way.
I use active crossovers (lots of reasons), so I don't have a pressing need for large value caps. Except for power supplies.
Jocko
Normally, I would find the humour in your tactics. But the timing could not have been worse.
Maybe you didn't get the response you sought because:
1.) No one was interested. A possibilty.
2.) No one has used them. A bit too pricey for most, and perhaps no one wanted to admit they can't afford them.
I have never used them. I go out of my way to avoid over-priced, hard-to-get stuff unless there is a valid reason to use them. No one has demonstrated a reason to use them. They might be good, might be junk. Doesn't matter much to me either way.
I use active crossovers (lots of reasons), so I don't have a pressing need for large value caps. Except for power supplies.
Jocko
Jocko:
You miss the point, I was just looking for exactly what this thread has provided. I'm not really for or against Black Gates, I was just looking for 'good' capacitors of all kinds.
You keep saying 'used them'. This thread is not about the title, this thread is about 'what is a good capacitor'.
Your brand recommendations?
You miss the point, I was just looking for exactly what this thread has provided. I'm not really for or against Black Gates, I was just looking for 'good' capacitors of all kinds.
You keep saying 'used them'. This thread is not about the title, this thread is about 'what is a good capacitor'.
Your brand recommendations?
I'm looking for recommendations for 'good' capacitors for use in a solid state amp (either the Leech low TIM or Opti-MOS).
I don't need Black Gate, but was planning on finding some 'good' capacitors.
So I gather the best would be:
1) Polystyrene
2) Silver Mica [/B][/QUOTE]
Help! I'm stepping into a lion's den here is the previous traffic is anything to go by.
Am I the only person who was confused as to someone effectively comparing silver mica or polystyrene caps to electrolytics.
There's a couple of orders of magnitude difference in the capacitance (it's rare to find micas or styrenes at bigger than the nanofarad level IMHO). I'm not sure on the relative merits of mining trucks and gocarts either but...
That said, common opinion (as far as I'm aware and with caps that I've personally tried) is that film and foil will sound more pleasant than metallised film, softer plastics will sound nicer than harder plastics (styrene beats polyprop but polyprop beats mylar/polyester) The jury is out on teflon, some folks swear by it, others hate it but electrically it's about as good as you can get outside air so the objectivists love it.
Copper will sound best, tin will be second best and aluminium (forgive the spelling I'm Australian) will be third best.
As a general rule a higher voltage cap with the same rating will sound better. Also, for the same conductor, dielectric, voltage and capacitance the cap with the larger physical size seems to sound better.
Mechanical damping also plays a part with people claiming (though I've never personally tried it) that damping a cap with blu tack or putting multiple layers of heat shrink around it will improve the sound.
Electros are widely regarded as the worst sounding of the capacitor types available.
If you are looking for medium value 0.1 - 20uF and 50 - 400 volts caps, the Auricap variety sold by Michael Percy amongst others have been getting very good feedback of late and are very competitively priced in comparison to most of the other "boutique" capacitors out there.
I'm currently in the process of making a Gainclone amp with Nichicon Muse electros in the PSU bypassed with the dreaded blackgate (1/10 of the main cap value) which are local to the amp stages. I'm using Auricaps for coupling purposes
Hope this may have helped a little
Drew
(now ducking down behind cover to avoid the crossfire)
I don't need Black Gate, but was planning on finding some 'good' capacitors.
So I gather the best would be:
1) Polystyrene
2) Silver Mica [/B][/QUOTE]
Help! I'm stepping into a lion's den here is the previous traffic is anything to go by.
Am I the only person who was confused as to someone effectively comparing silver mica or polystyrene caps to electrolytics.
There's a couple of orders of magnitude difference in the capacitance (it's rare to find micas or styrenes at bigger than the nanofarad level IMHO). I'm not sure on the relative merits of mining trucks and gocarts either but...
That said, common opinion (as far as I'm aware and with caps that I've personally tried) is that film and foil will sound more pleasant than metallised film, softer plastics will sound nicer than harder plastics (styrene beats polyprop but polyprop beats mylar/polyester) The jury is out on teflon, some folks swear by it, others hate it but electrically it's about as good as you can get outside air so the objectivists love it.
Copper will sound best, tin will be second best and aluminium (forgive the spelling I'm Australian) will be third best.
As a general rule a higher voltage cap with the same rating will sound better. Also, for the same conductor, dielectric, voltage and capacitance the cap with the larger physical size seems to sound better.
Mechanical damping also plays a part with people claiming (though I've never personally tried it) that damping a cap with blu tack or putting multiple layers of heat shrink around it will improve the sound.
Electros are widely regarded as the worst sounding of the capacitor types available.
If you are looking for medium value 0.1 - 20uF and 50 - 400 volts caps, the Auricap variety sold by Michael Percy amongst others have been getting very good feedback of late and are very competitively priced in comparison to most of the other "boutique" capacitors out there.
I'm currently in the process of making a Gainclone amp with Nichicon Muse electros in the PSU bypassed with the dreaded blackgate (1/10 of the main cap value) which are local to the amp stages. I'm using Auricaps for coupling purposes
Hope this may have helped a little
Drew
(now ducking down behind cover to avoid the crossfire)
Drew:
Yes, that's confused several people (i.e. the different types I mentioned) ..
I was really just looking for good name brand suggestions and types (i.e. ceraminic, foil, etc). for all types of capacitors. (the prev. thread one person said 'precision doesn't matter for power supply caps' which is a true statement - but leakage does, of course).
The title was an attention getter, and I appologize for that (although in this case, it worked (sigh)). I'm not necessarily against Black Gates.
Your note hit the nail on the head, Thank you.
Actually, I have a very good idea of what to look for now, everyone has been pretty helpfull (with a few exceptions
and I appreciate the help!
Yes, that's confused several people (i.e. the different types I mentioned) ..
I was really just looking for good name brand suggestions and types (i.e. ceraminic, foil, etc). for all types of capacitors. (the prev. thread one person said 'precision doesn't matter for power supply caps' which is a true statement - but leakage does, of course).
The title was an attention getter, and I appologize for that (although in this case, it worked (sigh)). I'm not necessarily against Black Gates.
Your note hit the nail on the head, Thank you.
Actually, I have a very good idea of what to look for now, everyone has been pretty helpfull (with a few exceptions
and I appreciate the help!Where are you Rod Serling?
This is getting more and more sureal... The guy wanted suggestions for non-audiophile capacitors. You guys are just messing with him.......right? I too am on the floor to dodge the bullets, well bul.... something.
P.S. Polypropylene is softer than polystyrene.
P.P.S. - leakage does not matter for power supply caps in general.
http://www.capacitors.com/pickcap/pickcap.htm
This is getting more and more sureal... The guy wanted suggestions for non-audiophile capacitors. You guys are just messing with him.......right? I too am on the floor to dodge the bullets, well bul.... something.
P.S. Polypropylene is softer than polystyrene.
P.P.S. - leakage does not matter for power supply caps in general.
http://www.capacitors.com/pickcap/pickcap.htm
supply bypass caps, etc.
I'm wondering ....
Has anybody out there that's doing all this paralleling of various technologies for bypass caps done any testing to check for resonances and ringing on the supply lines? What about using some series resistances for damping? I'll step on a land mine and say concern about these kinds of issues FIRST seems to be more logical, beneficial and constructive than talking about which "boutique" cap to use and how many different types to parallel. I've seen some good papers on this kind of stuff. I'll post some links later if I can find them.
I KNOW Harry has some good links .... Maybe if we ask nicely
If this starts to jog anyone else' memories, I also remember some of the really good papers were written to help improve performance of designs that use those dreaded "3 terminal" regulators!
Wait a second, let me zip the flak jacket up ...zzziiiiiiiip!
OK, let 'er rip!
mlloyd1
I'm wondering ....
Has anybody out there that's doing all this paralleling of various technologies for bypass caps done any testing to check for resonances and ringing on the supply lines? What about using some series resistances for damping? I'll step on a land mine and say concern about these kinds of issues FIRST seems to be more logical, beneficial and constructive than talking about which "boutique" cap to use and how many different types to parallel. I've seen some good papers on this kind of stuff. I'll post some links later if I can find them.
I KNOW Harry has some good links .... Maybe if we ask nicely
If this starts to jog anyone else' memories, I also remember some of the really good papers were written to help improve performance of designs that use those dreaded "3 terminal" regulators!
Wait a second, let me zip the flak jacket up ...zzziiiiiiiip!
OK, let 'er rip!
mlloyd1
I don't mind a 'audiophile' capacitor if it can be objectivly proven, although I'll freely admit I lean more toward wider availability.
I really think good circuit design is more important than boutique caps, but want to have an open mind.
I also don't mind subjective evaluations, but in my opinion (yours may and should differ!) the 'sound' depends on WHERE the cap is being used.
I actually started this thread as I was trying to find some 5% caps and couldn't hardly find any of them.
I'm an EE by school degree, but it was quite a while ago and I haven't done any circuit design lately. So I lean toward 'if you can't measure it, it's not real'. Note that 'measure' can be with your ear too!
This whole thread has generated enough traffic I may try and consolidate the findings.
I really think good circuit design is more important than boutique caps, but want to have an open mind.
I also don't mind subjective evaluations, but in my opinion (yours may and should differ!) the 'sound' depends on WHERE the cap is being used.
I actually started this thread as I was trying to find some 5% caps and couldn't hardly find any of them.
I'm an EE by school degree, but it was quite a while ago and I haven't done any circuit design lately. So I lean toward 'if you can't measure it, it's not real'. Note that 'measure' can be with your ear too!
This whole thread has generated enough traffic I may try and consolidate the findings.
I'm an EE by school degree
Me too... so's Jocko. Read the "picking capacitors" article link and we may absolve you. Alot of the things that make " Audiophile" caps good are very objective. Low ESR being one of the most important. Most of the" Audiophile" caps measure quite good on "objective" measurements. Oh, by the way, caps were being picked for sonics before there were "Audiophile" brand caps, Still are in fact.
Me too... so's Jocko. Read the "picking capacitors" article link and we may absolve you. Alot of the things that make " Audiophile" caps good are very objective. Low ESR being one of the most important. Most of the" Audiophile" caps measure quite good on "objective" measurements. Oh, by the way, caps were being picked for sonics before there were "Audiophile" brand caps, Still are in fact.
used to be a mica nuts ...
All,
used to be a mica nuts ... now i have a collection to big to ever use up. What i learned: trust no mica with high voltages, they are mean lil' things seducing you with their sound and then suddenly deciding to short and to take your ultra-rare output tubes with them to Nirwana.
However, with SS circuit voltages, micas should be safe. And some sound very good, some are junk and this can be measured, too. Hint: test every mica u are using with a dielectric test bridge and trash those not having extraordinary low tangens delta, damping or high Q, whatever the instrument has as output.
As with all caps, internal contacting is vital for sonics, if intermittent or hiZ to some degree, trash the cap.
Styrene:
To my very surprise (being heavliy biased against polystytrene caps, those cheapocheapo crystal clear with axial or radial leads just wrapped between the foil) high quality polystyrene sounded fantastic, as EQ cap as well as as coupling cap.
The small values of high precision styrenes come potted in square pots, manufactured by Rifa, Siemens/Epcos, NSF. These are the only styrenes i would use, but i would use them in my most cherished phono EQ.
Forgot, there are styrenes looking like cheap plastic caps, completely covered with insulating plastic and with axial leads. And there are hermateic styrenes with ceramic housing. I tried out both as coupling caps.
Bettered only by the the MKVs i was raving about in another thread.
Electrolytics:
My friends use mostly Oscons. But formy AKSA i decided to settle on Siemens/Epcos B41538 which is intended to be used in switching power supplies. I got the chance to audition a SS amp before and after its power supply was equipped with them. No question ot me, worth a try. They were fancy, i thought they sounded like i know it from BlackGates.
I guess any Epcos electro meant to be used in switching PS is worth trying.
All,
used to be a mica nuts ... now i have a collection to big to ever use up. What i learned: trust no mica with high voltages, they are mean lil' things seducing you with their sound and then suddenly deciding to short and to take your ultra-rare output tubes with them to Nirwana.
However, with SS circuit voltages, micas should be safe. And some sound very good, some are junk and this can be measured, too. Hint: test every mica u are using with a dielectric test bridge and trash those not having extraordinary low tangens delta, damping or high Q, whatever the instrument has as output.
As with all caps, internal contacting is vital for sonics, if intermittent or hiZ to some degree, trash the cap.
Styrene:
To my very surprise (being heavliy biased against polystytrene caps, those cheapocheapo crystal clear with axial or radial leads just wrapped between the foil) high quality polystyrene sounded fantastic, as EQ cap as well as as coupling cap.
The small values of high precision styrenes come potted in square pots, manufactured by Rifa, Siemens/Epcos, NSF. These are the only styrenes i would use, but i would use them in my most cherished phono EQ.
Forgot, there are styrenes looking like cheap plastic caps, completely covered with insulating plastic and with axial leads. And there are hermateic styrenes with ceramic housing. I tried out both as coupling caps.
Bettered only by the the MKVs i was raving about in another thread.
Electrolytics:
My friends use mostly Oscons. But formy AKSA i decided to settle on Siemens/Epcos B41538 which is intended to be used in switching power supplies. I got the chance to audition a SS amp before and after its power supply was equipped with them. No question ot me, worth a try. They were fancy, i thought they sounded like i know it from BlackGates.
I guess any Epcos electro meant to be used in switching PS is worth trying.
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