I found some amps to be sensible to the number of strands on the Gnd return line from the speakers ! You can try to increase the strands here : more than the + line, not the opposite ! You can get sometimes a deeper, heavier bass ! Seems when you increase the surface of this cable it decreases the Z on this cable and can be heard in some systems (amp/speaker)....
Now for the surround speakers, I find it's not mandatory. I will go for Something between 13 to 16 awg.
Now for the surround speakers, I find it's not mandatory. I will go for Something between 13 to 16 awg.
Keep both DC resistance and inductance as low as possible.
Some four decades ago a German HiFi magazine with serious reputation (not a high glossy one) found out and proved by measurements that a common 6 x 1 mm² cable offers the best bang for the money, compared to other high prized cables of about the same cross section, if the »positive« and »negative« were arranged in a way that each three are forming a star. In the middle of this 6-stranded cable there usually is a blind plastic string of about the same diameter as the wires including isolation, so the six wires are at the corners of a honeycomb.
Best regards!
Some four decades ago a German HiFi magazine with serious reputation (not a high glossy one) found out and proved by measurements that a common 6 x 1 mm² cable offers the best bang for the money, compared to other high prized cables of about the same cross section, if the »positive« and »negative« were arranged in a way that each three are forming a star. In the middle of this 6-stranded cable there usually is a blind plastic string of about the same diameter as the wires including isolation, so the six wires are at the corners of a honeycomb.
Best regards!
Was it not the Mogami made for a German Hifi shop ? The blue Mogami Something, can't remember ???
The more strands the bigger the cross section I assume ? Yep I was not assuming there was a variation of thickness of the wires when I said more strains.
Seems for a same weight of copper, a standalone cable or a multiple strands do not give the same result ! Not sure the surface doesn't matter, even for a speaker vs the same cross section with a standalone wire, my very basic understanding is some low current signals travels more in the surface of a cable than in its earth and that it changes with the amount of current ! Perhaps it matters more for fragile signals .
Some made "flat" thin copper speaker cable with good subjective result.
Now if we need precision one should talk about what is "bass" and which is the quantity of current involved I assume. (if we wouid like to truly speak with precision...)
The more strands the bigger the cross section I assume ? Yep I was not assuming there was a variation of thickness of the wires when I said more strains.
Seems for a same weight of copper, a standalone cable or a multiple strands do not give the same result ! Not sure the surface doesn't matter, even for a speaker vs the same cross section with a standalone wire, my very basic understanding is some low current signals travels more in the surface of a cable than in its earth and that it changes with the amount of current ! Perhaps it matters more for fragile signals .
Some made "flat" thin copper speaker cable with good subjective result.
Now if we need precision one should talk about what is "bass" and which is the quantity of current involved I assume. (if we wouid like to truly speak with precision...)
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Is that so?Henderson said:
No. The distribution of current does not depend on current but frequency. Current always flows in loops so the out and return conductors carry the same current and have the same effect.
All you need for good objective results is low resistance and not too high or low capacitance and inductance. Subjective results are merely one persons preference (or placebo/expectation effect). 'Flat' cable may have higher inductance and lower capacitance than normal. Interestingly, other people prefer low inductance and higher capacitance -so probably all that is happening is that people are applying tone controls by changing speaker cables. Such people would normally not allow variable tone controls in their equipment as they 'damage the sound' - yet 'fixed' tone controls by using electrically poor cables are OK?
That's interresting : so only HF have a behavior to travelling along the surface of the cable... Noticed.
There are subejective hearable difference between speaker cables, all made of very good copper with low pF resistance per meter ! Placebo can not always explain. Does only geometric arrengement explain that difference (inductance is changed ? impedance of different physical arrengement) ?
So if only capacitance is the factor of choice, one has to take the thicker speaker cable possible ? I have been trying again this trick about higher size of the gnd speaker cable between the amp, and it works for me (am I biased?) : speaker has low sensivity and the amp is said to be stable (it's an amp à la Krell) !
What (maximum usefull) cable size would you advise please for our domestic needs for few feets ?
Indeed we see too much garden hose in our living rooms, if it can be avoided...
Well off topic, not sure it helps the OP but to choose reasonable cables I had good results already with some Belden in the past is the only testimonial I can bring here
There are subejective hearable difference between speaker cables, all made of very good copper with low pF resistance per meter ! Placebo can not always explain. Does only geometric arrengement explain that difference (inductance is changed ? impedance of different physical arrengement) ?
So if only capacitance is the factor of choice, one has to take the thicker speaker cable possible ? I have been trying again this trick about higher size of the gnd speaker cable between the amp, and it works for me (am I biased?) : speaker has low sensivity and the amp is said to be stable (it's an amp à la Krell) !
What (maximum usefull) cable size would you advise please for our domestic needs for few feets ?
Indeed we see too much garden hose in our living rooms, if it can be avoided...
Well off topic, not sure it helps the OP but to choose reasonable cables
I had good results already with some Belden in the past is the only testimonial I can bring hereHello,
At the risk of offending some, the statement "There are subejective hearable difference between speaker cables, all made of very good copper with low pF resistance per meter " does not follow. Also, skin effect is certainly applicable at RF frequencies, not really at audio frequencies.
Have looked and i am not aware of any actual scientific study that has ever shown that differences can be heard between reasonable made and specified cables. Scientific method, including blind testing is what has gotten us to the planets, computers, lasers and so much more. Almost funny how some tell us it does not apply to sound waves and music.
Web page here gives a pretty accurate IHMO write up. Speaker Cable Gauge (AWG) Guidelines & Recommendations | Audioholics
For those to whom this is a religion, it is a free country.
FWIW
At the risk of offending some, the statement "There are subejective hearable difference between speaker cables, all made of very good copper with low pF resistance per meter " does not follow. Also, skin effect is certainly applicable at RF frequencies, not really at audio frequencies.
Have looked and i am not aware of any actual scientific study that has ever shown that differences can be heard between reasonable made and specified cables. Scientific method, including blind testing is what has gotten us to the planets, computers, lasers and so much more. Almost funny how some tell us it does not apply to sound waves and music.
Web page here gives a pretty accurate IHMO write up. Speaker Cable Gauge (AWG) Guidelines & Recommendations | Audioholics
For those to whom this is a religion, it is a free country.
FWIW
The titles of these two articles should fit in right here Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth
Interconnect and speaker cable whitepaper
Interconnect and speaker cable whitepaper
Nothing very new under the sun. It is called the skin effect. That's the reason why they once invented RF litz wire to be used in the tuning and oscillator circuits in AM radios.
Btw, (p)F is the unit for capacitance. Resistance is measured in ohms.
No, it isn't. As said before, resistance (in ohms) and inductance (in Henries) count much more in speaker cables.
Best regards!
Resistance is by far the most important thing. After that you need reasonable values for capacitance and inductance (not too low, not too high). I am repeating myself, as are others, because you don't seem to grasp this basic point. It is easy to make a cable which sounds different; you just have to make one of the parameters go outside the requirements for good electrical behaviour. Then if the cable costs enough someone will believe the difference is an improvement and tell his friends.Henderson said:
It isn't.
Use the thickest ordinary cable which is thin enough for the connectors and sufficiently flexible for your needs. For a short cable much of the resistance comes from the connections.
: i listen to différences, I must be biased !I also light sometimes some candles to Cardas God, lol ! Btw I'm not hearing so much difference between Sinatra and a chineese opera, maybe indeed cables don't matter... but if not bias cause a difference can be heard between speakers cable, a difference might exist... big enough at auio frequency to be heard. (or not, it"s perhaps epyphanies)
There is something I'd like to know : how to know if the cable is average enough (not too high inductance, not too low ) ? Resistance should be close at same thickness for the most important factor of choice with all the cables, they all use same good industrial copper ?
I was thinking pro cables are the best because made for the job, but at the end of the day didn't have so good result with brands like Mogami for instance. I'm th efirst to think one should not spend too much money in cables. (or in audio)
I was thinking pro cables are the best because made for the job, but at the end of the day didn't have so good result with brands like Mogami for instance. I'm th efirst to think one should not spend too much money in cables. (or in audio)
So ok, for resistance, I assume the shortest cables and thickiest is the way to go ! For inductance, well it's above my knowledge to measure.
Have to read the links given above, thanks for that. I'm on the way to measure the filter of my old Kef speakers; will proceed with speakers cables as I have some pairs of different cables as well.
Have to read the links given above, thanks for that. I'm on the way to measure the filter of my old Kef speakers; will proceed with speakers cables as I have some pairs of different cables as well.
You can ballpark inductance by inspection. The closer the two conductors are to each other the lower the inductance. High inductance can lower high frequency response on a few speakers. But the other side of the coin is capacitance. The lower the inductance, the high the capacitance and vice versa. Some boutique and legacy amplifiers are not happy with high capacitance cables. In any case, it's the total Resistance, Capacitance & Resistance that matters. Not the manufactures spec per foot or meter, rather it's about the entire cable.
Skin effect, damping factor and stranding are just common misunderstandings.
From an interference point of view, twisted pair or quad is better than straight zip-cord.
Skin effect, damping factor and stranding are just common misunderstandings.
From an interference point of view, twisted pair or quad is better than straight zip-cord.
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