Hi again!!!Go for Nichicon.
As for dinner i would love to.Just let me know when u come.
Many of Japanese tourists visit my country.
Best regards!!
Many thanks for the confirmation. Not sure when I can visit but our daughter honeymooned in Croatia and had a fantastic time.
I have to shelve this project for a while, but would like to contact you again about the multi-layer ceramics because I've never used them before.
All the best.
Hi, Basi
I should have said I had never used MLCCs SMDs before...
How about the KEMET Goldmax series MLCCs for the 0.1uf /5.5vdc and other small value caps?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMt3KoXD5rJ2N/RwGcpeXsP5MbV59zV63Y4=
Many thanks and have a great weekend.
No. C607 is a Goldcap with very large value for memory backup. It is 0.1F so 0.1 Farad !! These type of caps can only be replaced for similar "battery-like" caps.
Sorry, but don't understand your explanation "It is 0.1F so 0.1 Farad !!"
I already ordered 0.1uf / 5.5vdc (C320C104K5R5TA), 0.47uf / 50vdc (C330C474K5R5TA) and 1uf / 50vdc (C322C105K5R5TA). These values are the same as the values for electrolytic caps in the amp manufacturer's parts list and as originally installed.
Attached is one page from KEMET data sheet for reference.
Thanks.
You ordered the wrong cap. There is a mistake in the parts list as it mentions only 0.1 and rarely mentions pF, nF, µF etc. Please look at the schematic and what the function of C607 is. The schematic clearly mentions "0.1F 5.5V". You can observe C607 with own eyes and see that it is a round cilinder type of cap. Not the size you would expect for a 0.1 µF cap....
The 5.5V rating is quite typical for these type of caps too. They are capacitors with more battery like properties (they have also sulphuric acid in them) and have extreme values for their size. Yes, this one is 100,000 µf !!! They serve to keep settings in memory over a longer time. Please note the series resistor. Normally there is only 1 of these in a device but there are exceptions. They are called Gold caps or Supercapacitors.
The 5.5V rating is quite typical for these type of caps too. They are capacitors with more battery like properties (they have also sulphuric acid in them) and have extreme values for their size. Yes, this one is 100,000 µf !!! They serve to keep settings in memory over a longer time. Please note the series resistor. Normally there is only 1 of these in a device but there are exceptions. They are called Gold caps or Supercapacitors.
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General information: please be careful using ceramic MLCC caps at random. Their ESR is so low that oscillation of regulators is possible. In audio circuits it may be better to use film or electrolytic caps. In control boards they can work fine but be careful when older types of local regulators are used.
In older analog amplifiers often electrolytic coupling caps were used at their inputs. Due to size and price manufacturers then did not use superior film caps. C182L and C182R can easily be replaced for much better performing small size film caps. If they have 5 mm pitch it is easy to find film replacements nowadays.
When this amplifier was produced 10 µF 50V MKT/MKS were 27 mm long. Now they exist in 5 mm pitch, just like the pitch that was used for electrolytic caps so no "dangling in the air", extension wires or equally terrible melt glue contraptions necessary. Since I almost only use Wima I can recommend the MKS-2XL in 10 µF 50V. These perform excellent and are a true upgrade to electrolytic caps.
In older analog amplifiers often electrolytic coupling caps were used at their inputs. Due to size and price manufacturers then did not use superior film caps. C182L and C182R can easily be replaced for much better performing small size film caps. If they have 5 mm pitch it is easy to find film replacements nowadays.
When this amplifier was produced 10 µF 50V MKT/MKS were 27 mm long. Now they exist in 5 mm pitch, just like the pitch that was used for electrolytic caps so no "dangling in the air", extension wires or equally terrible melt glue contraptions necessary. Since I almost only use Wima I can recommend the MKS-2XL in 10 µF 50V. These perform excellent and are a true upgrade to electrolytic caps.
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Many thanks for your detailed explanation. The original caps are electrolytics, so I will replace them with the same type.
All the best.
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1. ? Do you mean the input caps ? If you have the chance why not improve the amp ? You can hear this and it has no negative side effects at this spot. All the others can be electrolytic caps. Generally the idea is to improve a device where possible when one is replacing caps anyway As explained price & size were the reason not to use film caps when this amp was produced. The engineers would have liked to use film caps.
2. Same story for C142, C144, C146 in both channels. Also C463 and C464. All can be replaced by superior film caps in 5 mm size 50V DC rating. Especially coupling caps better be film caps. You can use 1 µF 50V film caps for C142L and C142R with no ill side effects.
2. What about the 0.1F cap ?
3. C172L and C172R are best replaced for bipolar electrolytic caps and not standard polarised electrolytic caps. Since these are in the feedback loop and "see" a bipolar signal it has often been debated here to use bipolar caps like the bipolar Muse at this spot. Best would be real film caps but these are very very rare. Like 4 pieces 22 µF 16V Wima MKS-2XL in 5 mm pitch. One at the upper side and one parallel at the bottom side of the board for each channel and you have an instant update. If you want those I have these in stock. Last source worldwide coincidentally
4. It won't hurt to solder parallel caps over the 2.7V Zener diodes. Both in preamp and power amp section in both channels.
As explained price & size were the reason not to use film caps when this amp was produced. The engineers would have liked to use film caps.2. Same story for C142, C144, C146 in both channels. Also C463 and C464. All can be replaced by superior film caps in 5 mm size 50V DC rating. Especially coupling caps better be film caps. You can use 1 µF 50V film caps for C142L and C142R with no ill side effects.
2. What about the 0.1F cap ?
3. C172L and C172R are best replaced for bipolar electrolytic caps and not standard polarised electrolytic caps. Since these are in the feedback loop and "see" a bipolar signal it has often been debated here to use bipolar caps like the bipolar Muse at this spot. Best would be real film caps but these are very very rare. Like 4 pieces 22 µF 16V Wima MKS-2XL in 5 mm pitch. One at the upper side and one parallel at the bottom side of the board for each channel and you have an instant update. If you want those I have these in stock. Last source worldwide coincidentally
4. It won't hurt to solder parallel caps over the 2.7V Zener diodes. Both in preamp and power amp section in both channels.
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5. If it was my amp transistors Q610, Q611, Q612 and Q613 would be removed. I would use a very low power muting relay (small telecom type) with antiparallel diode driven by Q608 and/or Q609 as using transistors for muting has negative side effects as these don't behave linear when used like this. This is a modification that falls in another category with regards to difficulty so maybe don't bother.
I can't figure out right now why it has double muting (AKA double trouble) but some measuring may make clear what happens when switching sources and at power on/off.
6. Please replace relay RY301 as it is prone to bad contacts and crackling/bad sound quality. Please replace for a higher rated silver contact relay. You will not regret this. If it hasn't failed yet it will fail the day after you have replaced the caps This one fits but is equally rated: 817-FTR-F4GAK024T-KW at Mouser. I lack the time right now but Schrack made some nice replacements that were 10A rated with silver contacts. These practically never fail and have lower contact resistance.
I can't figure out right now why it has double muting (AKA double trouble) but some measuring may make clear what happens when switching sources and at power on/off.
6. Please replace relay RY301 as it is prone to bad contacts and crackling/bad sound quality. Please replace for a higher rated silver contact relay. You will not regret this. If it hasn't failed yet it will fail the day after you have replaced the caps
This one fits but is equally rated: 817-FTR-F4GAK024T-KW at Mouser. I lack the time right now but Schrack made some nice replacements that were 10A rated with silver contacts. These practically never fail and have lower contact resistance.
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5. If it was my amp transistors Q610, Q611, Q612 and Q613 would be removed. I would use a very low power muting relay (small telecom type) with antiparallel diode driven by Q608 and/or Q609 as using transistors for muting has negative side effects as these don't behave linear when used like this. This is a modification that falls in another category with regards to difficulty so maybe don't bother.
I can't figure out right now why it has double muting (AKA double trouble) but some measuring may make clear what happens when switching sources and at power on/off.
6. Please replace relay RY301 as it is prone to bad contacts and crackling/bad sound quality. Please replace for a higher rated silver contact relay. You will not regret this. If it hasn't failed yet it will fail the day after you have replaced the caps
Hi, Jean-Paul.
I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this for a real novice. The original small value electrolytics are C607; C142L,R; and C461, 462 in the Front PCB (Control Board).
When you say "film capacitors", you mean plastic film like these?
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/...=sGAEpiMZZMv1cc3ydrPrF652zNprbYwMkWvn1Y212qE=
Many thanks also for the heads up about the relay and BPs for C172L and C172R. I'll go that route.
One of the caps I ordered is a back order, so I already contacted Mouser about changing the incorrect MLCCs.
All the best.
Yes film caps is an abbreviation for capacitors that are made from metal film or foil (different!) with a plastic as dielectric. In this case polyester. In Japan often called mylar condensor. Most call them polyester film capacitors or MKS/MKT.
It is a study on itself but let's keep it short and state that MKS/MKT (polyester foil/film) are standard quality film caps (there are slight differences between brands/types) and they are way better than most electrolytic caps. MKP (polypropylene) are better but larger and more expensive. You can find them in 5 mm pitch nowadays so please search yourself. As said, I almost exclusively use Wima products as they are good quality for the price. Electrolytic polarised caps are not the best choice in devices but no other cap is so cheap and has such large values. In other words: we are obliged to use them certainly with values above 100 µF in higher voltages. Every amplifier PSU has 10,000 µF or larger caps which really can't be done with film caps. Well it can be done if you like your amp to be as large as the room it will be placed in.
In general film caps are to be used in the signal path as coupling caps when you have a choice and the PCB has 5 or 10 mm pitch solder pads. This can be done in practical life with values up to 22 µF. Nakamichi engineers did not have that choice then. You do have the choice now as they are now small and cheap due to better production methods.
Please take your time an find an equivalent relay that is 10A or higher rated with the same coil specifications 24V 720 Ohm. I have them in stock but as I had an accident I am not very mobile. Maybe I can look for them tomorrow. The one I pointed you to will do for quite some years but there are better ones out there.
* I again repeat that C607 is NOT a small cap. It is a very large cap as it is 0.1F so 0.1 Farad which is 100,000 µF !!!!! It is a special cap to memorise setting over a longer period of time. Your 0.1 µF won't do well there. Your device will loose settings at power off. You need this one but please check if it fits physically. If not you can use an even higher value. Older ones often are larger than the current ones with the same value.
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EEC-F5R5H104/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuhucAexPYLerdQAmPnGnq1
I can help you with the 22 µF 16V in 5 mm. 2 x 22 µF = approx. 44 µF. You can replace C173L and C173R for 2.2 or better 4.7 µF 50V in 5 mm pitch and you are there. I was not exaggerating that I am the last source of these 22 µF 16V in 5 mm pitch as I bought the very last lot from Wima. Many members bought them from me but stock is limited now. I can sell you 4 if you like. No other brands produce these as they are too expensive and no one buys them
C142, C144, C146 in both channels and C463 and C464 can all be replaced for MKT/MKS film caps with better sound quality as a bonus.
It is a study on itself but let's keep it short and state that MKS/MKT (polyester foil/film) are standard quality film caps (there are slight differences between brands/types) and they are way better than most electrolytic caps. MKP (polypropylene) are better but larger and more expensive. You can find them in 5 mm pitch nowadays so please search yourself. As said, I almost exclusively use Wima products as they are good quality for the price. Electrolytic polarised caps are not the best choice in devices but no other cap is so cheap and has such large values. In other words: we are obliged to use them certainly with values above 100 µF in higher voltages. Every amplifier PSU has 10,000 µF or larger caps which really can't be done with film caps. Well it can be done if you like your amp to be as large as the room it will be placed in.
In general film caps are to be used in the signal path as coupling caps when you have a choice and the PCB has 5 or 10 mm pitch solder pads. This can be done in practical life with values up to 22 µF. Nakamichi engineers did not have that choice then. You do have the choice now as they are now small and cheap due to better production methods.
Please take your time an find an equivalent relay that is 10A or higher rated with the same coil specifications 24V 720 Ohm. I have them in stock but as I had an accident I am not very mobile. Maybe I can look for them tomorrow. The one I pointed you to will do for quite some years but there are better ones out there.
* I again repeat that C607 is NOT a small cap. It is a very large cap as it is 0.1F so 0.1 Farad which is 100,000 µF !!!!! It is a special cap to memorise setting over a longer period of time. Your 0.1 µF won't do well there. Your device will loose settings at power off. You need this one but please check if it fits physically. If not you can use an even higher value. Older ones often are larger than the current ones with the same value.
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EEC-F5R5H104/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuhucAexPYLerdQAmPnGnq1
I can help you with the 22 µF 16V in 5 mm. 2 x 22 µF = approx. 44 µF. You can replace C173L and C173R for 2.2 or better 4.7 µF 50V in 5 mm pitch and you are there. I was not exaggerating that I am the last source of these 22 µF 16V in 5 mm pitch as I bought the very last lot from Wima. Many members bought them from me but stock is limited now. I can sell you 4 if you like. No other brands produce these as they are too expensive and no one buys them
C142, C144, C146 in both channels and C463 and C464 can all be replaced for MKT/MKS film caps with better sound quality as a bonus.
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Wima MKS2 in 4.7 µF 50V as used at several spots in your device can be found here at Mouser Japan:
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B044701K00KSSD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtmW1oUCKTs6tv1x/HT0ugP
You need 8 of them.
And these:
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00JO00/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv8QEQcPUP6BZZXA34loOG2
You need 2 of those. C182L and C182R.
My Japanese is a little rusty but I am sure you can find 1 µF 50V Wima MKS2 yourself 1µF 50V Wima MKS2 for C461/462 and C142L and C142R so 4 pieces in total. Please note to look for 5 mm pitch as they also exist in 2.5 mm !
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B044701K00KSSD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtmW1oUCKTs6tv1x/HT0ugP
You need 8 of them.
And these:
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00JO00/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv8QEQcPUP6BZZXA34loOG2
You need 2 of those. C182L and C182R.
My Japanese is a little rusty but I am sure you can find 1 µF 50V Wima MKS2 yourself
1µF 50V Wima MKS2 for C461/462 and C142L and C142R so 4 pieces in total. Please note to look for 5 mm pitch as they also exist in 2.5 mm !
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Wima MKS2 in 4.7 µF 50V as used at several spots in your device can be found here at Mouser Japan:
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B044701K00KSSD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtmW1oUCKTs6tv1x/HT0ugP
You need 8 of them.
And these:
http://www.mouser.jp/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKS2B051001N00JO00/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv8QEQcPUP6BZZXA34loOG2
You need 2 of those. C182L and C182R.
My Japanese is a little rusty but I am sure you can find 1 µF 50V Wima MKS2 yourself
jean-paul sensei.
Superb! Thank you so much. I owe you a good dinner the next time I am in Germany...
Sorry, but I can't properly focus at present because the house is being renovated... I hope to get moving on this in May.
Although you say your Nihongo is "rusty", mine sucks and I've been here for 40 years...
All the best.
40 years and no knowledge of the language ?! Ai!
Here a blow up of the C607 mystery (not for me). Please see the value and see what it does. It is a memory back up cell. C602 is a 0.1 µF cap, C607 is a 0.1F cap (100000 µF). In this application it would not make sense to use a 0.1 µF cap with a series resistor connected to another 0.1 µF and 330 µF cap in parallel. C602 and C603 are there to decouple the 5V to the chip. The series resistor to C607 is there to limit charging current as with batteries. Gold caps behave a lot like rechargeable batteries. In fact they are a kind of crossbreed between caps and batteries. Bastard caps
* I was pointed to the MKP2 series in another thread. You can have all caps till 1 µF in 5 mm MKP so polypropylene. I would choose the 100V versions. The 4.7 and 10 µF can only be Wima MKS2-XL series.
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKP_2.pdf
Here a blow up of the C607 mystery (not for me). Please see the value and see what it does. It is a memory back up cell. C602 is a 0.1 µF cap, C607 is a 0.1F cap (100000 µF). In this application it would not make sense to use a 0.1 µF cap with a series resistor connected to another 0.1 µF and 330 µF cap in parallel. C602 and C603 are there to decouple the 5V to the chip. The series resistor to C607 is there to limit charging current as with batteries. Gold caps behave a lot like rechargeable batteries. In fact they are a kind of crossbreed between caps and batteries. Bastard caps
* I was pointed to the MKP2 series in another thread. You can have all caps till 1 µF in 5 mm MKP so polypropylene. I would choose the 100V versions. The 4.7 and 10 µF can only be Wima MKS2-XL series.
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKP_2.pdf
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40 years and no knowledge of the language ?! Ai!
Here a blow up of the C607 mystery (not for me). Please see the value and see what it does. It is a memory back up cell. C602 is a 0.1 µF cap, C607 is a 0.1F cap (100000 µF). In this application it would not make sense to use a 0.1 µF cap with a series resistor connected to another 0.1 µF and 330 µF cap in parallel. C602 and C603 are there to decouple the 5V to the chip. The series resistor to C607 is there to limit charging current as with batteries. Gold caps behave a lot like rechargeable batteries. In fact they are a kind of crossbreed between caps and batteries. Bastard caps
* I was pointed to the MKP2 series in another thread. You can have all caps till 1 µF in 5 mm MKP so polypropylene. I would choose the 100V versions. The 4.7 and 10 µF can only be Wima MKS2-XL series.
http://www.wima.com/EN/WIMA_MKP_2.pdf
Yes indeed is 0.1 f cap for memory.I asked in previous post Is it o.1 f or o.1uf and the ftpols say its o.1uf.In that position u need a super cap of 0.1F and the c602 may be x7r,x8r,mkp,mks,mkt whatever.
But i recommend for digital power supply x7r due the low inductance i higher esr for dump the resonance.
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