DF96 you may very well be correct. Would you or Jens care to described or take
a pic to demonstrate the practice or best practice? If not, then where should I find it?
if I knew I would just do it. I guess if you knew too you would post it.
Just doing the best we can. One pic is worth a thousand words.
There is only one way to learn to do reliable experiments:
- learn all the relevant theory (and some theory which appears to be irrelevant)
- get lots of experience in doing experiments, debugging them, repeating them, carefully analysing the results then subjecting them to the scrutiny of your peers
Some people want a short cut. Usually it means trying to do experiments without understanding theory, and hoping that experience can somehow substitute for understanding. A few people think that their great theoretical knowledge will somehow substitute for lack of experience.
As someone who naturally veers towards the theory side, I am not the best person to give advice about doing experiments.
- learn all the relevant theory (and some theory which appears to be irrelevant)
- get lots of experience in doing experiments, debugging them, repeating them, carefully analysing the results then subjecting them to the scrutiny of your peers
Some people want a short cut. Usually it means trying to do experiments without understanding theory, and hoping that experience can somehow substitute for understanding. A few people think that their great theoretical knowledge will somehow substitute for lack of experience.
As someone who naturally veers towards the theory side, I am not the best person to give advice about doing experiments.
Can anyone come up with a test for how the color of insulation affects the sound of a wire? There are people who claim they can hear the difference
Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk
There are people who claim to be abducted by aliens as well
“how silly”, a Z-foil resistor sounding different by reversing the polarity.
Hello Ed and All,
The first times I saw this thread I skipped over it, thinking “how silly”, a Z-foil resistor sounding different by reversing the polarity.
Previously Jan has touted your bridge technique as being sensitive down to -170dB’s
Discussions on (audible) differences between types of passive components like resistors range far in audio engineering. Ed Simon put his money where his mouth is and developed a bridge-type measurement setup that enabled him to measure resistor non-linearity down to -170dB. The article shows that there are indeed quite substantial non-linearity differences between resistor types. But it also shows that the best ones are not necessarily the most expensive ones and that there may well be something to the excellent reputation of old, obsolete types touted by some designers.
https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2093
I am thinking that even increasing the sample size to 1M and averaging over 100 samples will show no difference between the two polarity options for the Z-foil resistor under test.
DT
Hello Ed and All,
The first times I saw this thread I skipped over it, thinking “how silly”, a Z-foil resistor sounding different by reversing the polarity.
Previously Jan has touted your bridge technique as being sensitive down to -170dB’s
Discussions on (audible) differences between types of passive components like resistors range far in audio engineering. Ed Simon put his money where his mouth is and developed a bridge-type measurement setup that enabled him to measure resistor non-linearity down to -170dB. The article shows that there are indeed quite substantial non-linearity differences between resistor types. But it also shows that the best ones are not necessarily the most expensive ones and that there may well be something to the excellent reputation of old, obsolete types touted by some designers.
https://linearaudio.net/article-detail/2093
I am thinking that even increasing the sample size to 1M and averaging over 100 samples will show no difference between the two polarity options for the Z-foil resistor under test.
DT
I am sorry I have to jump on this discussion, but here is my 2 cents.
I am an audiophile since 1984. I design and build amplifiers, DACs preamps and many other High-End audio equipment. I have a really good ears. I hear the difference especially in caps. Yes they have direction. It is audible and it has a physical explanation behind. Also wires have direction too. There is a physical explanation behind also. I have no time to discus that. If you are curious just check Miflex caps, Auricap XO, Duelund's. The manufactures specify that direction. And it is easy to hear it. For disbelievers - there are so many articles you can read online to understand why direction exist. I personally experienced directional behavior of caps and wires long time ago - in other worlds sonic differences. After that I don't spend time trying to back this by science. I just listen and decide the direction. After all being an audiophile is enjoying listening to a high quality reproduced music. Not digging into science. You read science books. But you listen music. Right? Any multi channel home theater receiver has way better specs than any tube amp. Which one sounds better? I have a question for Bulgarian guy "nightyj". When you tested Z-foils with a DAC as IV converter - is it the same direction shown on the picture? From DAC out to ground?
Another question to German guy "rundmaus" I didn't read anywhere on your posts that you actually did a listening tests and could not hear any difference in caps direction or wire direction? Please post your listening experience. At the end of the day it is all about listening and evaluating by listening. Equipment, wires, caps resistors etc. Our ears are our best test instrument.
Expectation bias is a very strong effect with human accoustic perception, easy to prove if you do the right experiments. Any test that isn't fully blind will simply report your expectation if there is no or little actual difference. This is well researched. Any test where you know what the setup is will be polluted with expectation bias even if you think you understand this and "compensate" for it (you can't compensate, you have to do blind testing).
Do you know the difference between science, religion and esoterics? Well, let me try to explain:
You walk to the fridge, open the door, take out a bottle of beer, open and drink it. So you've scientifically proven that there was (at least one) bottle of beer inside the fridge.
Religion means you say that there's a bottle of beer inside the fridge without having opened the door, hence without knowing it exactly.
Esoterics means that you claim that there is a bottle of beer inside the fridge, even in the case you wouldn't find any if you'd open the door and look inside.
You clearly belong to the third category.
Best regards!
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Still waiting to read about listening experience or tests ran by you "theorist" guys.
BTW all three science, religion and esoterics are well combined in our hobby.
All audio designs are based on science, we are religious about quality of sound and we are not mainstream average Joe who buys their equipment because the manufacturer says "it's the best" We rely on reviews from people, consumers, audiophile's listening tests and experience. Sometimes our taste differ from others. But that's normal. Otherwise we'll all have the same equipment and will be listening same song again and again. As I said I trust my ears and use them for both - critical listening and enjoying music.
Now I am going to enjoy listening some music reproduced from my "directional" system
BTW all three science, religion and esoterics are well combined in our hobby.
All audio designs are based on science, we are religious about quality of sound and we are not mainstream average Joe who buys their equipment because the manufacturer says "it's the best" We rely on reviews from people, consumers, audiophile's listening tests and experience. Sometimes our taste differ from others. But that's normal. Otherwise we'll all have the same equipment and will be listening same song again and again. As I said I trust my ears and use them for both - critical listening and enjoying music.
Now I am going to enjoy listening some music reproduced from my "directional" system
As is usual, Wikipedia has a fairly detailed digest here ( Observer-expectancy effect - Wikipedia ) and a “rabbit-hole” of linkies as well, at the end of the article. I've been happily linking away for an hour now, with no end in sight.
Mark's one-liner isn't really that far off, Bill. Expectation bias simply encapsulates the statistical finding that experiments set out to demonstrate some difference end up 'finding' that difference even when no actual difference is in play.
The Wikipedia article goes on to cite that double-blind testing is among the more efficient antidotes to this Experimenter Bias an Observer Bias set of effects. (Hence, elsewhere, my creating a sophisticated ABCDE randomizer-and-recorder…)
Anyway, Happy New Year, Bill.
⊕1 to Mark
⋅-=≡ GoatGuy ✓ ≡=-⋅
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Direction of wires: yes, critical, especially for solid core occ
Explanation: The "no time" excuse is quite pathetic. All explanations i have ever heard are based on 100% BS.
Why is it so hard to admit that many audible effects have no reasonable explanation? Science/engineering are extremely helpful to understand audio electronics up to midfi level. Above that all advances are purely empirical.
I gue you're able to tell me how to perform a DBT with me as the subject and the operator in one person, don't you?
The answer ist a very simple one: Because they aren't. Period.
Best regards!
But in most chronic cases of audiophilia nervosa the experimenter and the subject (listener) possess the same set of ears and brain, so here the distinction lacks a difference.
I am under impression that this forum is called DIY AUDIO, because we are here to share our experience and help others who are into this hobby with our findings. Looks like folks like you and some other folks are here to argue about our experience? It is not hard to admit that some times there is not a reasonable explanation behind some effects. This doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe the facts, not explanations. Explanations can only help understanding the facts. They don't prove them. Witnessing the facts prove them. I also am with you about some explanations being stupid. Not all of them. Example - continuous crystal structure of copper conductor....also forming that structure also called "breaking in". Have you ever built anything audio? I guess - yes, have you ever experimented with different parts including direction of caps, resistors, or wires or you are here to argue? You can not argue without having facts! Correct me if I am wrong. Science helps a lot to show us a preliminary expectations for certain design or circuit. The rest is tests and trials. Have you spent some of your precious time trying different approaches and mods on your system, instead of denying based on science. Hiding your lack of experience( or should I say experimenting) behind science is convenient and sometime convincible, but that's works for newbies and and some not very experienced guys. Sooner or later their curiosity will push them to try one of this "snake oil" nonscientific mods or pieces of equipment and when they hear the difference than you nonbelievers, deniers and scientist will tell them that science says - they are wrong? As I said you read science how the music should sound. You don't listen, you don't experiment, you don't look for something new and better. You are very pragmatic and feel comfortable in your shell. If that's make you happy - it's OK. But don't tell me what I've heard or experienced. If you ran your own tests - please share with us.
A friend of mine has a 4 way speakers with super tweeter crossed above 12khz. My hearing if you test it will show that I don't hear above 12khz. Put me together with a young guy ( I am 58yrs.)with perfect ears and i will hear when the supertweeter is disconnected and not working, he won't. Why? Because of my experience. Scientifically I shouldn't hear any difference. Another example - can you scientifically explain how to measure an amplifier or speaker soundstage or how 3 dimensional they sound?????? Please explain scientifically why a tube amplifier with worse specs sound better than a solid state amp with perfect specs? Wish you good luck with your scientific approach. I am an electronic engineer, but I stopped reading specs of audio equipment or most of the specs long time ago. When I read, I look for sensitivity and impedance and xover frequency for the speakers, impedance and maybe damping factor for amps and design being push-pull or SE, class A or not. I trust my ears and also other people ears who already proved they can hear well and write honest and unbiased reviews. I spend money and time keeping up with experiments because my curiosity and innovative nature keeps pushing me moving forward. You deniers, scientists and nonbelievers stay comfortably where you are. You obviously don't trust your years. How sad! You called me pathetic, when I said "I have no time". Yes I have no time to explain you something that you can read all over internet, audio forums, reviews. If you never did that - than who is pathetic? Or you maybe call all the manufacturers - liars? And all the audiophiles or DIYers - fools? I suggest you - try to reverse your interconnect cable in your system. Don't tell anyone what you've heard...... I am out of this discussion.
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