when to use high grade caps - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Design & Build > Parts

Parts Where to get, and how to make the best bits. PCB's, caps, transformers, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 13th February 2013, 07:38 PM   #1
dre is offline dre
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Netherlands
Default when to use high grade caps

Hi

I'm about to build some high quality speakers and have to buy capacitors for the crossovers. The question that rises is which ones will give a good result. There are some realy expensive capacitors out there and I wonder if these are worth the money. I read some threads on this forum, and I see that the opinions vary. Some claim you might just as well buy the cheapest ones around and others are willing to spend hundreds of $$$ on a crossover. I have no clue what to choose.

I have the following questions.
- Under which conditions do high grade capacitors matter?
- I want to build a three way speaker. Which crossover parts (tweeter, mid , bass) benefit from better caps.
- If there is a resistor or a coil in series with the capacitor does it still matter?
- which ones have a good price quality ratio
- which commercial speaker brands use what type. (from what I've seen, they use entry level "audiophile" capacitors like mundorf MCap or just elco's)

Last edited by dre; 13th February 2013 at 07:54 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 07:49 PM   #2
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
I'll come out in the middle. You want a high quality cap with low microphonics, ESR commensurate with the crossover requirements, and relatively low inductance. That means encapsulated, machine-wound caps, high tension windings, with polypropylene being the preferred dielectric. Metal foil would be preferable to metallized.

Avoid any cap labelled "audio" or "audiophile" or any cap boasting of exotic materials- that usually degrades performance, which makes some audiophiles happy because of the added distortion and microphonics.

Stick with well-engineered mass-produced brands. Wima, Vishay, Panasonic, that sort of thing.
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2013, 08:07 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Hello.

About which capacitor could have a better sounding than another: try this well known site http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
You should put a better quality capacitor where the "signal" goes through. Typically (but depends on your filter) on the highs and some of the mids. Standard quality should ne OK for the others.
I put Obligato as "high quality" in my filter, MCap as standard quality. Also: bass are a little more punchy with high quality air coils (lower resistance is better). True for coils on the signal path (bass and maybe on the mids).

Philippe
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 12:48 PM   #4
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Blackburn, Lancs
I second Sy here, well made commercial brands as listed are going to be better than exotic audiophile caps...plus you will save money
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 07:05 PM   #5
dre is offline dre
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by opensource View Post
Hello.

About which capacitor could have a better sounding than another: try this well known site Humble Homemade Hifi
You should put a better quality capacitor where the "signal" goes through. Typically (but depends on your filter) on the highs and some of the mids. Standard quality should ne OK for the others.
Philippe
The article you mention starts with the equivalent circuit diagram of a capcitor. There is a resistor and a coil in series. This is the reason why I wonder if there is anything to gain (if there is any to begin with) with an expensive capcitor if the series resistance/inductance is far lower than the parasitic components "inside the capcitor".

In my understanding of electronics all parts in the filter are part of the signal path. Whether these are in series of in parallel is not relevant. Or
do I not I not understand you correctly?
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 07:16 PM   #6
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre View Post
This is the reason why I wonder if there is anything to gain (if there is any to begin with) with an expensive capcitor if the series resistance/inductance is far lower than the parasitic components "inside the capcitor".
It won't be. If you get a good, name-brand non-audiophile foil/film cap, the inductance will be negligible for this application. The linked site is... imaginative, lots of story-telling to market their services.

edit: I notice they also sell "audiophile" capacitors as well as a variety of audio placebos. Add several large grains of salt to anything you read there.
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 09:41 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre View Post
In my understanding of electronics all parts in the filter are part of the signal path. Whether these are in series of in parallel is not relevant. Or
do I not I not understand you correctly?
I was meaning components in series. Beware: I didn't told you that you'll have to buy some Duelund capacitors to build good speakers. Also: you'll not transform "standard" speakers into high quality one with just some good components. You only may expect to have a slight/moderate improvements (more "punchy" bass with low resistance air coils on bass, some better definition with the highs and no idea for the mids. I only built a pair of 2-way floorstanding speaker) so don't spend too much with components in your crossover.
10%/15% of the total amount of your speakers+cabinet would be reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY
The linked site is... imaginative, lots of story-telling to market their services.
Ok. Your point of view. The "capacitor test page" is an old page. There wasn't shop on the web site some years ago and I agree it's not a good idea to mix "tests" and "shopping".
Guess what you may find in the crossover of some B&W speakers? Mundorf capacitors...
600 Series | Technologies - Bowers & Wilkins | B&W Speakers
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 09:56 PM   #8
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Yes, branding is important in that market segment. Data and evidence... not so much. Fortunately, those of us building for ourselves can just pick the best performing components and not worry about how they'll look in brochure photos or if they'll impress chimp reviewers.
__________________
The more you pay for it, the less inclined you are to doubt it.- George Smiley
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 10:05 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: The Jurassic Coast, England. GB
Send a message via Skype™ to JonSnell Electronic
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I'll come out in the middle. You want a high quality cap with low microphonics, ESR commensurate with the crossover requirements, and relatively low inductance. That means encapsulated, machine-wound caps, high tension windings, with polypropylene being the preferred dielectric. Metal foil would be preferable to metallized.

Avoid any cap labelled "audio" or "audiophile" or any cap boasting of exotic materials- that usually degrades performance, which makes some audiophiles happy because of the added distortion and microphonics.

Stick with well-engineered mass-produced brands. Wima, Vishay, Panasonic, that sort of thing.
I am sorry but "low microphonics" in a crossover, that has no gain?
Low microphonics should be used in any sort of amplifier that is subject to vibration. Not a loudspeaker crossover.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2013, 10:08 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: The Jurassic Coast, England. GB
Send a message via Skype™ to JonSnell Electronic
There is a post on this site with a guy selling a component that retails for 60p (0.55euro or 40cents US) for $40.
This should stop!
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rebuilding a DAC Audio grade or Computer grade caps? gto127 Digital Source 0 28th January 2009 08:17 PM
Anyone Tried Nover Audio Grade Caps? Thomo Parts 22 28th October 2008 01:43 PM
PEH169 RIFA High performance computer grade caps peranders Swap Meet 4 26th November 2002 12:54 PM
Computer grade caps joke Pass Labs 19 19th September 2002 11:21 AM
High Grade Midranges Myren Multi-Way 9 17th December 2001 04:42 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:54 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2