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Old 17th February 2013, 10:05 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gootee View Post
understand your frustration
Mr Butch Gootee,

but why the Frustration ?

In general, it's not the "technically-knowledgable" who display a dismissive attitude towards the dark side, go bananas, or try to straighten a banana with fake arguements.

As part of an arguemental technique, boutique shop clients do often use demeaning phrases toward one's profession/education.
(in this instance, Scarecrow comes to mind, in need of a brain transplant)
Or hasten to add that they also use generic brands, where "applicable", also a classic and very handy arguementative tool, aimed at covering their back.
All in all, there's the burning urge/desire, over and again, to talk others into spending a lot more on fashionable items.
(anyone who hasn't lost track on how many vogue brands have passed over the decades ?)

In my loudspeakers, I use several thousand dollars worth of hq-foil caps in large value (no pr speech), based on construction/properties/material/sound. Even at the scam rate I got them (+ dodging sales tax, was 19%), I wouldn't dream of talking others into them, not once.
But I love to talk shop where/when "applicable", if it's cap tech, not just label.

So where's the uptightness originating from, of those who do, endlessly ?
Rationally, one would guess a need for acknowledgement/recognition, not sharing.

Come now, young dog or old, one can not be both a knee-bender and that other cerebral thing simultaneously.
(trivia moment : inhabitants of Queensland, which includes Brisbane, go by the name B-Benders)

Oh, look at the time already, got to make like a banana, and split.
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Last edited by jacco vermeulen; 17th February 2013 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 18th February 2013, 12:09 AM   #62
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dre View Post
Some claim you might just as well buy the cheapest ones around and others are willing to spend hundreds of $$$ on a crossover. I have no clue what to choose.
It is simple. All about price to performance ratio. Believe me, I can hear tiny differences in sound that most people cannot, but I've never wanted to use boutique parts, for a reason you may want to understand.

So you want to make a crossover for your speaker. Now what drivers do you use? If a stereo Audio Note foil cap is $100 more expensive than Solen caps, then depends on what driver you already have, I may probably be able to improve the system more by buying more expensive tweeter.

So you see from above example, knowledge gives you more options. If you cannot make speaker, then apply to you that well designed speaker with cheap drivers can be better than badly designed speaker with expensive drivers. But if you can make speaker, you can always get the most out of expensive drivers.

So even if for example you don't have the knowledge, always think about this: "Is there something else that I can do to improve the system instead of buying boutique parts?"

Here is a more "down to earth". If your driver is a Vifa, you can make a better speaker by replacing the driver than using those boutique caps. But of course you are limited to your knowledge, but hey, if you get the idea, you can look for other people design with better drivers.

For crossover, right values is usually more important than slightly better cap (don't forget cap tolerance). I usually prefer cheap MKP 6.6uF (because I need 6.6uF) than Auricap 6.8uF (standard value, which "cannot" be reduced by paralleling)

Last edited by Jay; 18th February 2013 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 18th February 2013, 02:16 PM   #63
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J-Jay,

but that's also part of the problem.

It requires technical expertise, and transforming into something one may not have the urge for, instant gratification by a color/flavor swap is sweeter. (which fits nicely into the consumer behavior shift of the last decades, primal urge is driven by preconditioning)

And a system upgrade by buying complete components of higher performance may not be in the budget.
Or instead of saving up, the cash is spent on glamour add-ons, drop-ins, or sideline items as audio magazines.

Gawd knows I've sinned.
Started with 1 magazine, before I stopped to think it through, I was spell-checking 5-6 issues a month. The +1000 in ~15 years time could have bought gear/books new or much sooner. Still have all of them stashed, part to remind me to repent for being a sinner-man in heat.

The outcome in the majority of cases is a budget set, consisting of refurbished components, entry-level loudspeakers which fit on a shelf, assembled kits, with shiny bead & mirror exchangeables.
Like a customised old vehicle with bling add-ons. (holding my breath for a jumping lowrider audio set)
Any comment in that direction, will be countermeasured by the statement that upgrade changes are most significant on more common gear.

(Oops, only half an hour left before the Zoo closes. High time to walk myself, before the cage count starts)
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Old 18th February 2013, 03:41 PM   #64
gootee is offline gootee  United States
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"Butch"?
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Old 18th February 2013, 03:59 PM   #65
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(Macho/Masculine)
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Old 24th February 2013, 09:35 AM   #66
dre is offline dre
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Jay:
I understand that you are not going to spend a fortune on filterparts with cheap drivers. The question I started this thread with is to describe under which technical conditions higher grade capacitors are beneficial. I'm trying to find out what people did to check the upgrade and to raise the discussion to higher level. Please tell us how the configuration of the filter, which parts you upgraded, by what parts. Did you measure anything etc. etc.
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Old 25th February 2013, 07:41 PM   #67
kouiky is offline kouiky  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
It won't be. If you get a good, name-brand non-audiophile foil/film cap, the inductance will be negligible for this application. The linked site is... imaginative, lots of story-telling to market their services.

edit: I notice they also sell "audiophile" capacitors as well as a variety of audio placebos. Add several large grains of salt to anything you read there.
Completely agree here. Several of these "audiophile capacitor test" sites like Humble Homemade Hifi have come about over the past few years and some of these types now have their own lines of capacitors or other components. Stay clear of them. I have tried costly audiophile approved capacitors and slowly sold them back into the audiophile community after testing them. They are no different from the cheapest lines of other film caps, and most are rebrands.

Last edited by kouiky; 25th February 2013 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 3rd March 2013, 04:58 PM   #68
data is offline data  Australia
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Wow...........

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Old 3rd March 2013, 05:36 PM   #69
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The most likely affects that are being heard by the ones who claim they can hear a pin drop in the middle of a rock concert are easy to explain 99% of the time. The people doing the substitution are not making sure that the substituted parts have the identical electrical values. If you take a typical polypro capacitor and substitute another often times the values can be changed as much as 20% from the listed value on the capacitor in the worst case. In the best case it will still be at least a couple of percentage unless the two components are matched exactly. The filter network has shifted in both the crossover point, which changes the sum of the networks and the slope can be affected with the large value changes. This is what I think people hear with these silly changes based only on the name and marketing of the esoteric components. Match them exactly and see if you can hear the difference, highly unlikely unless there is something wrong with one of the components to begin with.
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Old 4th March 2013, 04:43 AM   #70
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I have to say that I am more ready to believe the claims of someone who has made actual comparisons than someone who posts claims with no concrete evidence or examples.

In this thread alone, but also in many others, the following "points" have been, and are always, made:

Marketers of upscale (boutique, snake oil, call them what you will) caps are offering relabeled standard (or even inferior) quality/construction/materials caps and charging more for them. Naive builders and others claim the relabeled caps are somehow superior to the identical standard brands. The same claim has been made numerous times, but no evidence or examples are ever provided.

People who use crappy drivers or bad speaker designs expect using expensive caps will make them superior to better drivers or better designs. A better cap is never used to improve an already excellent design using the best drivers. No examples were provided.

Web sites that offer evaluations of cap performance make their own parts and sell them, or have some other motive for grading some caps superior to others. Notice that the more expensive caps always receive a higher rating? What else could that possibly tell you other than that the evaluator is somehow in cahoots with cap manufacturers? Aren't they all crooks? No examples were provided, just general slander.

Decent caps can typically vary by 20% from stated value, and people who use them are stupid enough to not be aware that filter parameters will be affected by such large differences in value. No examples were provided, and I honestly believe that no one (certainly not 99%) who builds or modifies crossovers would buy caps with that awful tolerance without knowing how to use them.

I think you guys are making stuff up. Other than self-assured superiority and smug insults, what do you have to offer? Can you provide any concrete evidence or specific examples? Or do we just have to believe you because you KNOW better and the rest of us, the ones who listen carefully and compare, are just biased, delusional fools?

In that case, I will take the word of anyone who dares to risk your ridicule by taking the time and expense to make actual investigations and share the results rather than posting legends and insulting arguments.

Regards,
Tom E
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