yes, well... salesmen are a necessary evil.
WJ Sanders was a sales engineer at Fairchild when he was booted out, he formed his own company with a U$10k capital and the rest is history, the mighty AMD.....
Last edited:
Luxury watches come to mind. Does a $ 20k IWC show time better than a $ 50 Seiko? No. Would I like to have an IWC? You bet; the craftmanship is fantastic, and it has that factor: look, I can afford an IWC!
Or jewerlry in general which has absolutely zero utility. We seem to accept that. Why then are we so upset about a $ 15k preamp that doesn't sound different from a $ 999 one? Is it because some people insist that it really DOES sound better, like the IW Company maintaining that their watches show time MUCH better?
jan
I like the watch example. Sitting in my room at the Venitian for CES is a 112 page book of watches that cost as much as my car, and it has two clocks one from HK and one from VDO. The printing and photos cost a fortune but my phone has more accurate time. Luxury goods are available in many forms.
Real-time systems programmer, who later morphed (briefly) into postdoc researcher on evanescent wave dielectric measurement instrumentation.john curl said:
For 8 years at the end of my IT career I ran a small (2-man!) consultancy. I quickly found that I am not a salesman, and we were too small to be able to afford a salesman. As it was, with fairly low overheads, we had to charge our clients about 3 times cost; 'cost' was mainly our own personal income from the company. With a salesman to support we would have had to double our fees!
One client thought all our fees went straight into our own pockets so was unwilling to pay a fair rate for some training: he wanted me to prepare a course (at my own expense), then deliver it (with training materials) all for just the normal hourly cost of my classroom time. He was quite baffled that I was asking for something like 4-5 times normal hourly rates.
I understand the need for a markup, but some do seem excessive. Of course, with low volume items most of the cost is (or ought to be) paying for design. These days some audio companies seem to employ people who have been trained in Creative Writing rather than Electronics.
So a rough translation of what I've been reading:
Many hi fi companies are run by people who are not good at business, or are selling items whose existence can't really be justified. How else can these people make a living except by clever marketing to fools, a symbiotic relationship with magazines and reviewers who have similar existential issues, and charging high prices? Anyone who has a problem with this clearly knows nothing about business or is bitter and twisted because they can't afford to buy boutique hi fi, or can't even hear the difference between surface mount and through-hole components. Philistines!
Many hi fi companies are run by people who are not good at business, or are selling items whose existence can't really be justified. How else can these people make a living except by clever marketing to fools, a symbiotic relationship with magazines and reviewers who have similar existential issues, and charging high prices? Anyone who has a problem with this clearly knows nothing about business or is bitter and twisted because they can't afford to buy boutique hi fi, or can't even hear the difference between surface mount and through-hole components. Philistines!
This statement is an operational nullity. I'd have a tough job justifying MY existence, and yet here I am.
Most grown-ups would agree that we are each responsible for the state of our knowledge, and can't blame anyone else if we are ripped off. But I can think of few businesses where you need to get a degree in engineering before you dare walk into a showroom with confidence.
Coppertop, why must you reduce everything to a parody and insert your own commentary as if its something that has been said? you really do seem to struggle with subtlety, or anything but black and white. it seems like it may be you thats not living in the real world.
I much prefer SMD and use it anywhere I can. but unlike yourself, i'm not under any illusions that high performance SMD parts are cheaper than their equivalent
justify your existence, you cant even prove your existence
the customer demands exclusivity
the customer demands glossy marketing materials
the customer demands more inputs and higher performance than he/she will ever use
the customer demands a pretty case
the customer wants more features than he/she will ever use
the customer often wants a highly branded and marketed product
the customer often desires only imported products
the customer often likes to buy somewhere local where he/she can get warranty support
the customer often likes to go to a showroom and hear the product
I much prefer SMD and use it anywhere I can. but unlike yourself, i'm not under any illusions that high performance SMD parts are cheaper than their equivalent
justify your existence, you cant even prove your existence
the customer demands exclusivity
the customer demands glossy marketing materials
the customer demands more inputs and higher performance than he/she will ever use
the customer demands a pretty case
the customer wants more features than he/she will ever use
the customer often wants a highly branded and marketed product
the customer often desires only imported products
the customer often likes to buy somewhere local where he/she can get warranty support
the customer often likes to go to a showroom and hear the product
Last edited:
Quite a lot of different themes running through this. Obviously companies can charge what they like and people can spend what they like. If companies are charging far more than they need to to make a reasonable profit- if that can even be defined- I'm not sure that's even an ethical issue. Luxury goods are priced as high as the market will stand. What is more interesting for most of us with real-world incomes is how much we think it is reasonable to spend to get a certain level of performance. That's pretty much impossible to quantify! Also interesting: Even if money is not a severe constraint, how good is good enough? Chasing different versions of 'best' can be fun, but how do you know when you've arrived? As DIYers we have a very different perspective to most consumers and we have the potential to get a much better cost/ quality ratio, but even (or especially?) for us, does the chase become more important than the performance, or even the music? Although he's clearly promoting his own products, Ashley does have a point, and integrated active speakers are an elegant way to go, but he's painting with a very wide brush to offer a blanket condemnation of many products that although expensive do sound very good.
Perhaps Coppertop just wants to ask a few metaquestions deserving of a considered response, though what you've said is enlightening. Customers a bigger problem than vendors? I, being a customer, didn't know about this.
I only mean that if the market did not ask for and in many cases insist on vast feature-sets, they would not be included, you think the producers would add 5-10 digital inputs (as well as ADC inputs becoming more common, so that means a preamp stage too) and 4 sets of outputs, or struggle for 2db over the last generation if it wasnt required to get the sales?
many of the people buying in this price bracket are semi-informed (dangerous combination) user forum 'educated' people who search out the reviews/comparisons before they buy; they may not even consider something that hasnt been reviewed in this fashion. they know techno-babble on a surface level, not design on an intimate level and they have a jargon checklist...
do you think that the companies would spend such huge amounts on marketing, or expensive chassis if they hadnt proven to be factors in how many sales are made?
the whole system is the problem, i'm not putting it all on the consumer, but I do believe they are at least as much to blame for the current situation, particularly with DACs, they are the most prone to creeping featurism and trends. now with all the idevice connectivity and wireless you have massive licensing fees, application/software development, as well as having more stringent layout needs to deal with the ever growing RF
I also dont like having words put in my mouth, like the leaded component thing, nobody said anything of the sort and it was included in coppertop's summary. especially given anyone who actually knows me would know that if anything i'm almost evangelical about SMD being the way forward.
Last edited:
True------!!!
I had an interesting discussion with a guy at work who loves cycling and disregards Hi-Fi. I'm in the other school.
He would buy a new car for £400. I would buy one for £12000.
He would buy a stereo for £200. Mine is worth about £30000.
I would buy a bicycle for £50. His cost him £11000.
We can both drive to the shops, listen to music and cycle to work.......
I had an interesting discussion with a guy at work who loves cycling and disregards Hi-Fi. I'm in the other school.
He would buy a new car for £400. I would buy one for £12000.
He would buy a stereo for £200. Mine is worth about £30000.
I would buy a bicycle for £50. His cost him £11000.
We can both drive to the shops, listen to music and cycle to work.......
Perhaps you should take a step backwards and consider that the humorous comment about hearing the difference between through-hole and SMD components is aimed at buyers rather than sellers.
Reading between the lines I surmise that you are trying to be honest in your dealings and bridle at Coppertop's suggestion that vendors are mostly bent. I wouldn't know what to do in your situation, given that vendors, if this thread is to be believed, are already using criticism of vendor unscrupulousness as a marketing ploy to unscrupulously sell more over-priced tat.
As for SMD, maybe diyers should solder leads on these components and wire them point to point, as a sort of religious sacrament. Because the soul of homebuilt stuff is on the point of extinction.
No such thing as being 100% correct. We all buy what we like and think we need.
One man's gold is another man's poison.
you expected that? one of 2 third parties come up with a personal view you 100% agree with?
I wish I was that easily pleased
hm, that makes one of those 2 parties a fourth party, doesn't it?you expected that? one of 2 third parties come up with a personal view you 100% agree with?
I wish I was that easily pleased
now seriously, I expect that any sane person that posts on a public forum does so being convinced of what they write. because otherwise this is just wasted server space.
and no, I wasn't referring to personal preference and all that ("one buys what one wants"). it's not about cheese vs apples, obviously no-one is 100% correct in thinking one is better.
Last edited:
no, by definition I would think they are kinda still both third parties =) strange as that may seem. a 3rd party is simply someone other than the 2 sides of an argument, those 2 sides may even be stretched to consist of many more than 2 singular people, it could just be 2 entities ie 2 companies and a third party is someone that isnt either of those 2 entities. otherwise 3rd party car insurance would have a pretty serious loophole
as for the rest i'm afraid youve lost me. what else were you measuring in percent but your view on whether either one of us was 100% right by your judgement? what else is that but apples vs oranges?
actually its hurting my head, I really dont know what you mean.
or you were simply making comment that neither of us will ever be 100% right in this argument?
if so, fair enough. thats why I havent answered M Knight's last post, even though I started to. at some point a point by point blow by blow becomes unproductive.
BTW M Knight, actually we are mostly on the same page as well.
as for the rest i'm afraid youve lost me. what else were you measuring in percent but your view on whether either one of us was 100% right by your judgement? what else is that but apples vs oranges?
actually its hurting my head, I really dont know what you mean.
or you were simply making comment that neither of us will ever be 100% right in this argument?
if so, fair enough. thats why I havent answered M Knight's last post, even though I started to. at some point a point by point blow by blow becomes unproductive.
BTW M Knight, actually we are mostly on the same page as well.
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.