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Old 5th January 2013, 07:08 PM   #41
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Concerts are where the money is these days. When I was still in the music biz, concerts were often done at a loss, or very little profit. They promoted the record/CD sales. We all know how that has changed.

It's just my taste, but I don't have to have the giant light, scenery, pyro, video, megawatt audio show to enjoy the music. Quite the opposite, in fact. But a rock concert or an opera is a "show", first and foremost. That's why they are so expensive.

Hi-Fi can be its own show, independent of the music. That can also get expensive.
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Old 5th January 2013, 08:27 PM   #42
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Interesting that there is some hostility to the man's views. I would have thought that of all people, it would be DIY-ers who agreed with him, because they have some idea of how much hardware really costs, and also how excellence can be designed and built on a shoestring budget.

Or is it that DIY-ers want to believe that their efforts are worth tens of thousands of pounds, too?
 
Old 5th January 2013, 08:52 PM   #43
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It's true... DIY hi-fi can be just as expensive as commercial hi-fi. After building chipamps in old cookie containers for $100 total, I started looking into Class A DIY amps via Pass Labs and tube SET amps. Wow, these things are expensive, but they sound amazing!

The heatsinked custom chassis by itself can cost $400 shipped, or a set of 300B tubes (which serve dual purpose as heatsinks) for $300. The transformers are even more expensive, so going for alternative power tubes for $5 each doesn't really save much when you're already paying $1000+ in parts. So yeah... hi-fi can be expensive, but worth it because the sound is more involving.
 
Old 5th January 2013, 08:54 PM   #44
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I believe you missed the point.

things can be taken too far, sure we as a group know more about what goes into the products, but on the whole are unaware of, or simply conveniently ignore the rest of the costs of doing business. the reductionist view that reduces everything to cost of parts is what is ruining the quality of the service industry and higher quality short run mid-fi/mid priced level goods by eroding the margins.

the high end will remain utterly unaffected, there will always be people that want the 'best' and actually WANT to pay ridiculous sums so they can show off to their friends, most of them dont care whats inside the box, they only care about the reviews. the reductionist view means that those trying to make a quality product have their margins eroded, are forced to manufacture offshore, substitute cheaper parts, do one less respin on a PCB, less testing, so it has the tendency to polarise the price brackets, stuff in the middle may be priced based in distribution costs, high promotion costs, forced to manufacture larger quantities too soon, to get the price down and have the stock that distribution demands of a serious product etc.

so it can become less value for money than the cheaper/cheapest goods made offshore in large numbers, in the same factories, which may or may not even release those same designs on ebay....
 
Old 5th January 2013, 08:54 PM   #45
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Or is it that DIY-ers want to believe that their efforts are worth tens of thousands of pounds, too?
Good question. I'm more concerned about James's assertion about how big an amplifier you need. I already feel like a numpty for building, at great cost to my wallet and sanity, amplifiers capable of no more than 18W apiece.
 
Old 5th January 2013, 08:56 PM   #46
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DIY hifi can be much more expensive if you take it all the way, but saving money isnt the point for me, I would have stopped long ago if it were, I think its the wrong reason to be doing it if i'm honest. I do it because I get a kick out of it and have a hunger for learning, also so I can have exactly what I want, which isnt really available at any cost.

I will have spent 12-15K at least (I prefer not to think about it too much) I reckon on my diy system of multiple amps, multiple dacs and speakers. sure I tried various designs along the way that wont have made it into the final system, different IV stages, entire power amps. but save money? nah well I suppose I would still have to pay more for something that gets close, but its not a motivating factor.

Last edited by qusp; 5th January 2013 at 09:01 PM.
 
Old 5th January 2013, 09:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
Interesting that there is some hostility to the man's views. I would have thought that of all people, it would be DIY-ers who agreed with him, because they have some idea of how much hardware really costs, and also how excellence can be designed and built on a shoestring budget.

Or is it that DIY-ers want to believe that their efforts are worth tens of thousands of pounds, too?
I think you may have missed the point. People are saying that being in business costs money, its not the cost of components that determines the price.
They have premises, marketing, staff costs, R&D costs, shipping, middle men, retailers etc. Its just a fact and some don't seem to understand this.

Its also becoming apparent IMO that there is much more competition than even ten years ago. The amount of niche manufacturers that build budget equipment and sold online for example must be making harder for the older players to remain profitable. For example, look at what good cd players and dacs cost now. I cant help but think that big companies with traditional overheads are having to compete against small nimble operators with low overheads who cleverly use the web to create buzz about their products.
They are also cutting out the middle men and selling direct.

In my opinion, I think that you can get alot of hifi for your money now compared to 20 years ago.
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Old 5th January 2013, 09:04 PM   #48
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Right... the cost of doing business must be factored in, especially if good customer service is offered.

You can definitely get decent hi-fi for cheap these days. A cheap CD player or computer sound card as the source, a cheap Lepai T-amp, and $40/pair bookshelf speakers. There are better, but you can get decent sound for cheap. Hi-fi is not "a ripoff" at all these days.
 
Old 5th January 2013, 09:09 PM   #49
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agreed, i'm lucky my background is in graphic design in the digital era and am savvy of the forums and viral marketing, like I said before, if i'm honest to a degree i'm part of the problem because I sell direct, but its really the only way it makes sense.
 
Old 5th January 2013, 09:12 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by cotdt View Post
Right... the cost of doing business must be factored in, especially if good customer service is offered.

You can definitely get decent hi-fi for cheap these days. A cheap CD player or computer sound card as the source, a cheap Lepai T-amp, and $40/pair bookshelf speakers. There are better, but you can get decent sound for cheap. Hi-fi is not "a ripoff" at all these days.
experiencing this first hand as a direct seller, its usually those who want to pay the least that take up the most of my time educating them on their choices, generally they are the most demanding.
 

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