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Old 6th January 2013, 10:44 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
yes, well... salesmen are a necessary evil.
WJ Sanders was a sales engineer at Fairchild when he was booted out, he formed his own company with a U$10k capital and the rest is history, the mighty AMD.....
planet10 needs your help: Let's help Ruth and Dave...http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/plane...ml#post5010547[B
Old 7th January 2013, 02:53 AM   #142
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Most company startups are spin-offs of earlier companies. Fairchild was not really first, but it was early.
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Old 7th January 2013, 05:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Really? Are you sure? You can't be talking about any women I know.
The more expensive the handbag, the thinner and prettier it makes you look.
(Men have similar reactions to leather jackets)
Not just men. Anna maintains I look MUCH better in the bomber jack she bought me

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Last edited by jan.didden; 7th January 2013 at 05:44 AM.
Old 7th January 2013, 05:43 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Just to clarify my comment on handbags, the point I was trying to make is that it is clear to all that an expensive handbag does not carry out the function of 'receptacle for carrying items' any better than a cheap one - it might even do it worse. It has other functions of course, at which it might excel, but they do not relate to carrying items.

Conversely, 'high end audio' is claimed to be actually better at providing music. Like the handbag, in some cases it might actually be worse at doing this. It has other functions of course, at which it might excel, but they do not relate to conveying music.
Luxury watches come to mind. Does a $ 20k IWC show time better than a $ 50 Seiko? No. Would I like to have an IWC? You bet; the craftmanship is fantastic, and it has that factor: look, I can afford an IWC!
Or jewerlry in general which has absolutely zero utility. We seem to accept that. Why then are we so upset about a $ 15k preamp that doesn't sound different from a $ 999 one? Is it because some people insist that it really DOES sound better, like the IW Company maintaining that their watches show time MUCH better?

Music is dither to the brain; lets me think below the usual chaos - me
Linear Audio Vol 13 is out! Check out my Autoranger and SilentSwitcher
Old 7th January 2013, 07:28 AM   #145
wayne is offline wayne  United States
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I like the watch example. Sitting in my room at the Venitian for CES is a 112 page book of watches that cost as much as my car, and it has two clocks one from HK and one from VDO. The printing and photos cost a fortune but my phone has more accurate time. Luxury goods are available in many forms.
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Old 7th January 2013, 09:53 AM   #146
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Originally Posted by john curl
Are you a good insurance salesman, auto dealer, what?
Real-time systems programmer, who later morphed (briefly) into postdoc researcher on evanescent wave dielectric measurement instrumentation.

For 8 years at the end of my IT career I ran a small (2-man!) consultancy. I quickly found that I am not a salesman, and we were too small to be able to afford a salesman. As it was, with fairly low overheads, we had to charge our clients about 3 times cost; 'cost' was mainly our own personal income from the company. With a salesman to support we would have had to double our fees!

One client thought all our fees went straight into our own pockets so was unwilling to pay a fair rate for some training: he wanted me to prepare a course (at my own expense), then deliver it (with training materials) all for just the normal hourly cost of my classroom time. He was quite baffled that I was asking for something like 4-5 times normal hourly rates.

I understand the need for a markup, but some do seem excessive. Of course, with low volume items most of the cost is (or ought to be) paying for design. These days some audio companies seem to employ people who have been trained in Creative Writing rather than Electronics.
Old 7th January 2013, 10:38 AM   #147
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So a rough translation of what I've been reading:

Many hi fi companies are run by people who are not good at business, or are selling items whose existence can't really be justified. How else can these people make a living except by clever marketing to fools, a symbiotic relationship with magazines and reviewers who have similar existential issues, and charging high prices? Anyone who has a problem with this clearly knows nothing about business or is bitter and twisted because they can't afford to buy boutique hi fi, or can't even hear the difference between surface mount and through-hole components. Philistines!
Old 7th January 2013, 11:27 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
whose existence can't really be justified
This statement is an operational nullity. I'd have a tough job justifying MY existence, and yet here I am.

Most grown-ups would agree that we are each responsible for the state of our knowledge, and can't blame anyone else if we are ripped off. But I can think of few businesses where you need to get a degree in engineering before you dare walk into a showroom with confidence.
Old 7th January 2013, 11:47 AM   #149
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Coppertop, why must you reduce everything to a parody and insert your own commentary as if its something that has been said? you really do seem to struggle with subtlety, or anything but black and white. it seems like it may be you thats not living in the real world.

I much prefer SMD and use it anywhere I can. but unlike yourself, i'm not under any illusions that high performance SMD parts are cheaper than their equivalent

justify your existence, you cant even prove your existence

the customer demands exclusivity
the customer demands glossy marketing materials
the customer demands more inputs and higher performance than he/she will ever use
the customer demands a pretty case
the customer wants more features than he/she will ever use
the customer often wants a highly branded and marketed product
the customer often desires only imported products
the customer often likes to buy somewhere local where he/she can get warranty support
the customer often likes to go to a showroom and hear the product

Last edited by qusp; 7th January 2013 at 12:06 PM.
Old 7th January 2013, 11:50 AM   #150
Toaster is offline Toaster  United Kingdom
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Quite a lot of different themes running through this. Obviously companies can charge what they like and people can spend what they like. If companies are charging far more than they need to to make a reasonable profit- if that can even be defined- I'm not sure that's even an ethical issue. Luxury goods are priced as high as the market will stand. What is more interesting for most of us with real-world incomes is how much we think it is reasonable to spend to get a certain level of performance. That's pretty much impossible to quantify! Also interesting: Even if money is not a severe constraint, how good is good enough? Chasing different versions of 'best' can be fun, but how do you know when you've arrived? As DIYers we have a very different perspective to most consumers and we have the potential to get a much better cost/ quality ratio, but even (or especially?) for us, does the chase become more important than the performance, or even the music? Although he's clearly promoting his own products, Ashley does have a point, and integrated active speakers are an elegant way to go, but he's painting with a very wide brush to offer a blanket condemnation of many products that although expensive do sound very good.

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