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Old 6th January 2013, 05:30 PM   #121
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Not everyone deals in subtleties, Jan. And few have your depth of knowledge or experience. The less you know, the easier it is to have an opinion. That's life.
that poster was just looking for a reaction as usual, you are correct subtleties are not in the lexicon..... its funny how a certain type of very rigidly 'objective' type, can actually take the act of empathy from a generally rational, but honest/introspective human being, as a sign of weakness. Worse, miss the point and take him as being the 'enemy' simply for seeing another viewpoint for what it is and taking the path of least resistance that is better for both. Its easier to just dismiss that that doesnt fit within your narrow world view.


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As Jan said, some people already "know" - and there is simply no telling them otherwise. Hi-Fi, like handbags, can be a fetish item.
that goes for the other side too, its possible to be so convinced your 'solution' is correct, to not recognise a better way.

Last edited by qusp; 6th January 2013 at 05:43 PM.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 06:41 PM   #122
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Really? Are you sure? You can't be talking about any women I know.
The more expensive the handbag, the thinner and prettier it makes you look.
(Men have similar reactions to leather jackets)
I concur. Luxury goods, which includes high-end audio, are about emotional benefits (passion, aesthetic beauty, craftsmanship, comfort, convenience, etc.) which go beyond the basic utility provided by the item. Emotional benefits are in the eye, ear, and mind of the beholder. Value judgements on luxury goods, therefore, includes more than an assessment of basic utility and specifications. It strongly includes each person's emotional reaction to the item. While this can produce highly non-linear assessments of benefits/price value, who's to conclude that such value assessments are faulty for that individual? Such can only be judged as faulty from the perspective of basic utility and specification. Which is what the author of the article seems to have done.
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Last edited by Ken Newton; 6th January 2013 at 06:59 PM.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 06:50 PM   #123
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I concur. Luxury goods, which includes high-end audio, is about emotional benefits (passion, aesthetic beauty, craftsmanship, comfort, convenience, etc.) beyond the basic utility provided by the item. Emotional benefits are in the eye, ear, and mind of the beholder. Value judgements on luxury goods benefits, therefore, includes more than an assessment of utility and specifications. It includes each persons emotional reaction to the item.
Agreed, but there is nothing like the emotional reaction to the amp I have built myself. Of course, at $20,000 for 20 min of my time, I guess it is a pretty expensive amp too...;-)
 
Old 6th January 2013, 06:59 PM   #124
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BINGO SY..
YOU SAY WANT A 90 DBL LEVEL( CONCERT LEVEL FOR ORCHESTRA)
AND YOU ARE GONNA SUCK UP ALL OF THAT 500w FOR A 30DB PEAK
PEOPLE COMMENT ON HOW EFFORtLESS MY 4 WAY ACTIVE SYSTEM IS

AND MY SMALLEST AMP IS A 4bsst ( 350/CH)
 
Old 6th January 2013, 07:04 PM   #125
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Old 6th January 2013, 07:17 PM   #126
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Edit: Speakers are perhaps the worst example, as there is some actual effort involved in making them. Something I know more about is the manufacture of electronic circuits comprising surface mount components on PCBs. Even if manufacturing one-offs in the developed world, the costs of this are so low, that charging >1000GBP for a 'DAC' is a fantasy markup for the lucky company raking the money in. But what about the design costs, and the alchemy that the company imbues the product with? Nah. The really clever bit is the DAC chip designed by properly clever people in a huge corporation, then churned out by the million for pence. Follow the data sheet and you're almost all the way there. Add on a few fancy 'audiophile' capacitors and you've done it. Cynical, moi?
are you sure you know something about making largish one off high quality multilayer PCBs? it really doesnt sound like you do... at Golden pheonix, who are not the cheapest, but certainly not the most expensive for good quality. for a 4 layer (I consider this essential if going for high quality mixed signal) 480cm2 , 0.062", FR4 Tg130, 1oz, ROHS: Immersion Silver, Two Side screen, Green solder mask, Min Hole Size: 12mil, Min Trace: 6mil, Leadtime: 6 business days+3days shipping (the shipping is free to USA) this is on their specials page and 480cm2 is the smallest panel

thats $400 for a blank PCB (after you have designed it). then for most modern high dollar dacs, you will need some sort of FPGA $$$$, perhaps picknplace if you dont have reflow or hotair soldering kit. yeah the top dollar dac chips cost a pence to make...

the above is not just cynical, its flat out untrue sensationalist nonsense IMO

again, I dont disagree with the fact that some dacs are waaay OTT for price, but if you think you can create a full featured one off dac in a decent case, for less than a few grand, not including your time for doing the PCB design, doing the FPGA programming, doing the chassis, doing all the soldering, doing all the modelling to try and make it meet spec etc etc then i'm really not sure you have ever attempted such an endeavour.

of course you can get away with less, but if you are comparing to what is expected of a high dollar modern design, thats whats expected.

today of course people want remote, some sort of remote app for ipad/android, probably wifi, maybe made for iphone compatibility, which means being part of the MFi program $$$$$.

Last edited by qusp; 6th January 2013 at 07:43 PM.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 07:33 PM   #127
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thats $400 for a blank PCB. then for most modern high dollar dacs, you will need some sort of FPGA $$$$, perhaps picknplace if you dont have reflow or hotair soldering kit. yeah the top dollar dac chips cost a pence to make...

the above is not just cynical, its flat out untrue sensationalist nonsense IMO
??

A 4 layer board, say 160 x 100 mm (impressive acronyms HASL, ROHS, FR4, 1oz, blah blah) in, say, 10-off quantities can be manufactured including components, assembled with pick & place, in the UK for of the order of 100 - I order them quite often. Bump up the quantities and it gets a lot less.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 07:45 PM   #128
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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you said one off and good luck fitting a full featured modern dac on 100 x 160mm

remember what you were comparing to, not what you can get away with

as you know 1 or 10, very little difference in overall cost, the cost is in their setup time.

Last edited by qusp; 6th January 2013 at 07:52 PM.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 08:10 PM   #129
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you said one off and good luck fitting a full featured modern dac on 100 x 160mm

remember what you were comparing to, not what you can get away with

as you know 1 or 10, very little difference in overall cost, the cost is in their setup time.
Well OK, I believe it costs me about 350 in total for the setup costs, which is a one-off charge as long as nothing changes in the design from then on. The point being that it isn't megabucks, particularly if, like businesses are supposed to do, I make a reasonable number of the boards.

Last edited by CopperTop; 6th January 2013 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Edit: it's nearer to 350 not 250.
 
Old 6th January 2013, 08:39 PM   #130
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One off or even 10 off is the KEY! Don't kid yourself, it is expensive to make something in small quantities.
 

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