Concerts are where the money is these days. When I was still in the music biz, concerts were often done at a loss, or very little profit. They promoted the record/CD sales. We all know how that has changed. 
It's just my taste, but I don't have to have the giant light, scenery, pyro, video, megawatt audio show to enjoy the music. Quite the opposite, in fact. But a rock concert or an opera is a "show", first and foremost. That's why they are so expensive.
Hi-Fi can be its own show, independent of the music. That can also get expensive.
It's just my taste, but I don't have to have the giant light, scenery, pyro, video, megawatt audio show to enjoy the music. Quite the opposite, in fact. But a rock concert or an opera is a "show", first and foremost. That's why they are so expensive.
Hi-Fi can be its own show, independent of the music. That can also get expensive.
Interesting that there is some hostility to the man's views. I would have thought that of all people, it would be DIY-ers who agreed with him, because they have some idea of how much hardware really costs, and also how excellence can be designed and built on a shoestring budget.
Or is it that DIY-ers want to believe that their efforts are worth tens of thousands of pounds, too?
Or is it that DIY-ers want to believe that their efforts are worth tens of thousands of pounds, too?
It's true... DIY hi-fi can be just as expensive as commercial hi-fi. After building chipamps in old cookie containers for $100 total, I started looking into Class A DIY amps via Pass Labs and tube SET amps. Wow, these things are expensive, but they sound amazing!
The heatsinked custom chassis by itself can cost $400 shipped, or a set of 300B tubes (which serve dual purpose as heatsinks) for $300. The transformers are even more expensive, so going for alternative power tubes for $5 each doesn't really save much when you're already paying $1000+ in parts. So yeah... hi-fi can be expensive, but worth it because the sound is more involving.
The heatsinked custom chassis by itself can cost $400 shipped, or a set of 300B tubes (which serve dual purpose as heatsinks) for $300. The transformers are even more expensive, so going for alternative power tubes for $5 each doesn't really save much when you're already paying $1000+ in parts. So yeah... hi-fi can be expensive, but worth it because the sound is more involving.
I believe you missed the point.
things can be taken too far, sure we as a group know more about what goes into the products, but on the whole are unaware of, or simply conveniently ignore the rest of the costs of doing business. the reductionist view that reduces everything to cost of parts is what is ruining the quality of the service industry and higher quality short run mid-fi/mid priced level goods by eroding the margins.
the high end will remain utterly unaffected, there will always be people that want the 'best' and actually WANT to pay ridiculous sums so they can show off to their friends, most of them dont care whats inside the box, they only care about the reviews. the reductionist view means that those trying to make a quality product have their margins eroded, are forced to manufacture offshore, substitute cheaper parts, do one less respin on a PCB, less testing, so it has the tendency to polarise the price brackets, stuff in the middle may be priced based in distribution costs, high promotion costs, forced to manufacture larger quantities too soon, to get the price down and have the stock that distribution demands of a serious product etc.
so it can become less value for money than the cheaper/cheapest goods made offshore in large numbers, in the same factories, which may or may not even release those same designs on ebay....
things can be taken too far, sure we as a group know more about what goes into the products, but on the whole are unaware of, or simply conveniently ignore the rest of the costs of doing business. the reductionist view that reduces everything to cost of parts is what is ruining the quality of the service industry and higher quality short run mid-fi/mid priced level goods by eroding the margins.
the high end will remain utterly unaffected, there will always be people that want the 'best' and actually WANT to pay ridiculous sums so they can show off to their friends, most of them dont care whats inside the box, they only care about the reviews. the reductionist view means that those trying to make a quality product have their margins eroded, are forced to manufacture offshore, substitute cheaper parts, do one less respin on a PCB, less testing, so it has the tendency to polarise the price brackets, stuff in the middle may be priced based in distribution costs, high promotion costs, forced to manufacture larger quantities too soon, to get the price down and have the stock that distribution demands of a serious product etc.
so it can become less value for money than the cheaper/cheapest goods made offshore in large numbers, in the same factories, which may or may not even release those same designs on ebay....
Good question. I'm more concerned about James's assertion about how big an amplifier you need. I already feel like a numpty for building, at great cost to my wallet and sanity, amplifiers capable of no more than 18W apiece.
DIY hifi can be much more expensive if you take it all the way, but saving money isnt the point for me, I would have stopped long ago if it were, I think its the wrong reason to be doing it if i'm honest. I do it because I get a kick out of it and have a hunger for learning, also so I can have exactly what I want, which isnt really available at any cost.
I will have spent 12-15K at least (I prefer not to think about it too much) I reckon on my diy system of multiple amps, multiple dacs and speakers. sure I tried various designs along the way that wont have made it into the final system, different IV stages, entire power amps. but save money? nah well I suppose I would still have to pay more for something that gets close, but its not a motivating factor.
I will have spent 12-15K at least (I prefer not to think about it too much) I reckon on my diy system of multiple amps, multiple dacs and speakers. sure I tried various designs along the way that wont have made it into the final system, different IV stages, entire power amps. but save money? nah well I suppose I would still have to pay more for something that gets close, but its not a motivating factor.
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I think you may have missed the point. People are saying that being in business costs money, its not the cost of components that determines the price.
They have premises, marketing, staff costs, R&D costs, shipping, middle men, retailers etc. Its just a fact and some don't seem to understand this.
Its also becoming apparent IMO that there is much more competition than even ten years ago. The amount of niche manufacturers that build budget equipment and sold online for example must be making harder for the older players to remain profitable. For example, look at what good cd players and dacs cost now. I cant help but think that big companies with traditional overheads are having to compete against small nimble operators with low overheads who cleverly use the web to create buzz about their products.
They are also cutting out the middle men and selling direct.
In my opinion, I think that you can get alot of hifi for your money now compared to 20 years ago.
Right... the cost of doing business must be factored in, especially if good customer service is offered.
You can definitely get decent hi-fi for cheap these days. A cheap CD player or computer sound card as the source, a cheap Lepai T-amp, and $40/pair bookshelf speakers. There are better, but you can get decent sound for cheap. Hi-fi is not "a ripoff" at all these days.
You can definitely get decent hi-fi for cheap these days. A cheap CD player or computer sound card as the source, a cheap Lepai T-amp, and $40/pair bookshelf speakers. There are better, but you can get decent sound for cheap. Hi-fi is not "a ripoff" at all these days.
experiencing this first hand as a direct seller, its usually those who want to pay the least that take up the most of my time educating them on their choices, generally they are the most demanding.
Funny, that is at least a small part of why I am now out of the business and have not been induced successfully to jump back in..
Qusp, that is a very good insight..
Great discussion lots of good points made!
manufacturing must have its tightest margins ever!
Hifi companies need to spend money on promotion so retailers will stock their products.
When we look at comparing diy to retail i think most of the difference is markup (retailers cant do it for less! )
That $500 product perhaps cost the shop $200 or less depending on quantity ordered.
That margin will in increase with luxury(like cars Ford dealers might only make $3k per unit whereas Merc dealers might make 10k).
It great being part of the diy scene , cutting out the markup and devoting the cash to our projects!!
manufacturing must have its tightest margins ever!
Hifi companies need to spend money on promotion so retailers will stock their products.
When we look at comparing diy to retail i think most of the difference is markup (retailers cant do it for less! )
That $500 product perhaps cost the shop $200 or less depending on quantity ordered.
That margin will in increase with luxury(like cars Ford dealers might only make $3k per unit whereas Merc dealers might make 10k).
It great being part of the diy scene , cutting out the markup and devoting the cash to our projects!!
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
it seems not much has changed in the 5+ years since this article was published (March 2007).
I've been on friendly terms with a number of manufacturers and retailers since the mid 70's. Aside from new technology and the web; the story was just the same back then!
it seems not much has changed in the 5+ years since this article was published (March 2007).
I've been on friendly terms with a number of manufacturers and retailers since the mid 70's. Aside from new technology and the web; the story was just the same back then!
Hey!
haha, there is a percentage of those that I have a big hand in 'wasting' that time with, because their interests may align somewhat with mine; one of the downsides (and upsides) of doing business in a field that is aligned with my hobby.
Funny, that is at least a small part of why I am now out of the business and have not been induced successfully to jump back in..
Qusp, that is a very good insight..
shutup...
I try not to think about it there is a flipside to that coin, those making the big orders are mostly just happy to take my recommendations almost unquestioned. they take up almost no time in the quoting process. they appreciate that time is money and recognise the single mindedness/passion it takes to do something really well. that is why they are paying me the premium dollars to do what they do not have the time, skills, knowledge or patience to do. usually these guys are referrals from repeat customers and take the time to give me positive feedback, photos of system integration (free promotional materials of the best kind for a bespoke manufacturer)
I need to work out how to foster more of this type of customer, but apart from just making them happy too, its VERY unpredictable.
ah I unfairly missed one; those that know exactly what they want and can articulate it to me in no time, even rarer....
And the ones who complain the most aftersale as well. I've spent more time placating folks who spent £50 on a s/h mic than those that spend £5K on a mixing desk - "...But my C1000 has got an unbranded mic clip..."
haha its like you read my mind... yes yes yes, thats part of the demanding, these guys are the quickest to send a follow up email when you havent answered within 24hrs to an email on a weekend and that will have no effect on the delivery timeline or outcome, or is asking for the possibility of changes to an order near completion.
Another favorite is asking for mail service whispering, when their countries EMS tracking is crap and the soonest delivery day has passed, but the latest is not even close... wheres my package? you said it would take X long..
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Well, I care, for one.
What kind of fairytale world do you live in? One where it's OK to take a child and his single mother's only asset in return for a few magic beans?
When you see somebody getting beaten up in the street, you can walk on by.
Who cares, you say. That old guy probably wasn't a war hero who risked his life in the liberation of occupied Europe 60 years ago, and anyway, who cares?
If I take a shotgun and blow a load of gold-dust into the bank of a stream, and then sell that piece of land to some unsuspecting prospector, that's fraud.
Nowhere are consumer's rights more endangered than when buying hi-fi equipment. That's the point of the article, and no matter how you want to quibble about the details of how it was expressed, the point is well taken.
People are more at risk of being ripped off in this arena than in practically any other retail forum. I can think of a few other problem areas, but as they say, 'Two wrongs don't make a right.'
Publications which should empower consumers persist in propagating the very disinformation which enables these frauds. From those institutions I don't exclude diyaudio.
What we're talking about is: what is fair, and what is known to be true, beyond a reasonable doubt. (The test in civil cases)
Anybody remember the Corvair? Ralph Nader? Manufacturers and their salesmen do not have the right to mislead consumers. 'Anything goes' is not the way we run our civilization. Certainly not, 'Anything goes because profits depend on it'. Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right. And just because an individual has a lot of money doesn't make it right either.
Are people being taken advantage of? The answer is unequivocally, 'yes.'
Is this a desirable state of affairs?
No.
Wash your hands of the responsibility if you can. Just try to bear in mind whose example you are following.
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