Re: Re: Re: Interpreting results
Jeez. Have you had your blood pressure checked lately?
Okay, I'll try one more time. I, ignorant worm that I am, unworthy to lick the mud off your statistical boots, beseech thee: after hours of studying your godlike communications, attempting to extract the crystalline wisdom they contain, have, due to my severely limited intelligence, come to the no doubt erroneous conclusion that you are saying that there are some audible differences that, while real, are too small to be reliably detected using double blind ABX testing without gigantic samples. In the depths of my ignorance, I believe that such a thing could be true in principle, but my comprehensive impotency prevents me from knowing what those differences might be or exactly how small they are. I beg, I pray, enlighten me! I will remain in fasting and meditation until you deign to make my life whole with this knowledge.
Joi gin.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Jeez. Have you had your blood pressure checked lately?
Okay, I'll try one more time. I, ignorant worm that I am, unworthy to lick the mud off your statistical boots, beseech thee: after hours of studying your godlike communications, attempting to extract the crystalline wisdom they contain, have, due to my severely limited intelligence, come to the no doubt erroneous conclusion that you are saying that there are some audible differences that, while real, are too small to be reliably detected using double blind ABX testing without gigantic samples. In the depths of my ignorance, I believe that such a thing could be true in principle, but my comprehensive impotency prevents me from knowing what those differences might be or exactly how small they are. I beg, I pray, enlighten me! I will remain in fasting and meditation until you deign to make my life whole with this knowledge.
Joi gin.
This is the exact reason I have lamented FOCUS (actually, lack thereof)..
Please, I started this thread hoping that some would discuss the E/M theory and test aspects concerning the topic..
It is much easier discussing actual measurements and S/N ratio of unwanted signals generated in the equipment.
Statistical analysis of an entity that is horribly undefined, and poorly controlled, is utterly useless..
How in the name of Sam Hill do you perform a cable swap if the geometry of the cable (size, conductor twist pitch, insulation thicknes, bends, spatial positioning) are not rigidly controlled but possible input variables??
My discussion is towards determining what if any, of these factors play in the hypothesized effect..
If anybody (including the warring parties here) has any valid test data to bring to the table, then I would certainly entertain discussion of audibility testing..
Till then...please keep on topic..
Cheers, John
Please, I started this thread hoping that some would discuss the E/M theory and test aspects concerning the topic..
It is much easier discussing actual measurements and S/N ratio of unwanted signals generated in the equipment.
Statistical analysis of an entity that is horribly undefined, and poorly controlled, is utterly useless..
How in the name of Sam Hill do you perform a cable swap if the geometry of the cable (size, conductor twist pitch, insulation thicknes, bends, spatial positioning) are not rigidly controlled but possible input variables??
My discussion is towards determining what if any, of these factors play in the hypothesized effect..
If anybody (including the warring parties here) has any valid test data to bring to the table, then I would certainly entertain discussion of audibility testing..
Till then...please keep on topic..
Cheers, John
sully said:
Yes; the open-loop voltage is purely a function of the loop's geometry. However, when you close the loop, what parts of that voltage appear where will depend, for instance, on the resistances of the various parts of the loop (i.e. the power cords, plugs and signal interconnects).
Earth loops are insidious for just the reasons you pointed out - simply moving the wires will change the problem. I strongly suspect a lot of power cord / interconnect mystique has arisen because people actually have grounding problems of some sort; changing the wires is merely a palliative and does nothing to correct the underlying problems.
Cheers
IH
IanHarvey said:
Hmmm...you've been perusing AR, I see..I posted that actual point there (least I think it was there) about a month or two ago..
(oh, btw..I'm jneutron there)The loop voltage of the shield that presents across the amp input will truly be a function of the total loop resistance, and how much of it is the shield of the IC..
The loop voltage of the center conductor will be the loop voltage, as the center conductor total loop resistance will be the amp input resistance..that is the loop resistance, +/- about .01% (I'm giving 1 ohm for the rest of the wiring..so it's 1 part out of 10K.)
Second part: total agreement..a lot can be learned from the pro apps..there, they use balanced for elimination of this type of problem.
Cheers, John
I hope you guys figured out that power cords are snake-oil. To cut to the chase you had better think of "treating" every single foot of the in-wall AC wiring back to your breaker box, then to the utility "pole", then to the sub-station, etc.
Trying to treat that last 6 feet from your outlet to your gear with shielding, exotic metals and materials is silliness. Think about it. The only way to possibly block RF riding on all conductors of a power cord is to clamp a snap-on ferrite bead around it at the entry to your equipment. That's it. I'm sorry. You've seen these before. They are the "lumps" that have to be placed around cables of all kinds or that equipment won't pass international standards for Electo-Magnetic Compatibility (EMC). You fail in the lab - you go home. You can't sell that product. You are done. The quick fix in the lab is a ferrite. Ferrite material eats RF.
Trying to treat that last 6 feet from your outlet to your gear with shielding, exotic metals and materials is silliness. Think about it. The only way to possibly block RF riding on all conductors of a power cord is to clamp a snap-on ferrite bead around it at the entry to your equipment. That's it. I'm sorry. You've seen these before. They are the "lumps" that have to be placed around cables of all kinds or that equipment won't pass international standards for Electo-Magnetic Compatibility (EMC). You fail in the lab - you go home. You can't sell that product. You are done. The quick fix in the lab is a ferrite. Ferrite material eats RF.
Agree with you, JRA.
Still true.
There are some exceptions though. If you have some badly filtered digital equipment
or turntable motor drive (like Linn's Lingo I) there may appear some HF rubbish on the
mains. Nevertheless any snake oil cord won't help at all, but some ferrite filter may do.
Still true.
There are some exceptions though. If you have some badly filtered digital equipment
or turntable motor drive (like Linn's Lingo I) there may appear some HF rubbish on the
mains. Nevertheless any snake oil cord won't help at all, but some ferrite filter may do.
Thanks TickTock. If I posted this elsewhere, or in the past, I'd be in flames.
So yes, a power conditioner with multiple outlets is a good way to go. That box will stop or severely attenuate all the upstream RF garbage delivered to your power receptacle. The buck stops there. It should offer line-to-line and lines to green ground low impedance RF paths (capacitors). Same thing re lightning protection components - usually MOV varistors but other products also add gas tubes in parallel. To me that mix is the best. The MOV is fast and catches the spike's rising edge by flattening it but there is still significant follow-on energy. The gas tube is slower but when it wakes up it "crowbars". Crowbar means that it collapses the spike, shorts all the remaining transient energy threw itself, continues to do that brute-force job until the threat voltage is gone and then lets go. Two different jobs - two devices. Division of labor.
Another feature to look for is a maximum current rating on the conditioner which may seem low. Why wouldn't it be say, 15A or 20A? Why 12A? That can tell you that there is "in-line" protection like ferrites or chokes. That part absorbs conducted broadband RF riding on the copper and turns it into heat - just a little heat. It does that all day long just like that lump in the data or power cord. The odd current restriction is maybe b/c there are magnetic devices in series with your wall receptacle lines and its own outlets. Those may have "saturation" limits where they can't do their job if the constant equipment load current is high and usually seen on isolation transformer-based conditioners or inline inductor / choke-based conditioners. That's why I mention this.
So yes, a power conditioner with multiple outlets is a good way to go. That box will stop or severely attenuate all the upstream RF garbage delivered to your power receptacle. The buck stops there. It should offer line-to-line and lines to green ground low impedance RF paths (capacitors). Same thing re lightning protection components - usually MOV varistors but other products also add gas tubes in parallel. To me that mix is the best. The MOV is fast and catches the spike's rising edge by flattening it but there is still significant follow-on energy. The gas tube is slower but when it wakes up it "crowbars". Crowbar means that it collapses the spike, shorts all the remaining transient energy threw itself, continues to do that brute-force job until the threat voltage is gone and then lets go. Two different jobs - two devices. Division of labor.
Another feature to look for is a maximum current rating on the conditioner which may seem low. Why wouldn't it be say, 15A or 20A? Why 12A? That can tell you that there is "in-line" protection like ferrites or chokes. That part absorbs conducted broadband RF riding on the copper and turns it into heat - just a little heat. It does that all day long just like that lump in the data or power cord. The odd current restriction is maybe b/c there are magnetic devices in series with your wall receptacle lines and its own outlets. Those may have "saturation" limits where they can't do their job if the constant equipment load current is high and usually seen on isolation transformer-based conditioners or inline inductor / choke-based conditioners. That's why I mention this.
The ear hears via transient positive leading edge peak function. it adds them up in time and level and works with harmonic systems thereof and is capable of an easy 100,000th of a second accuracy, in one spec area alone. It is better than that in multiple ways and areas. Plus the big *** organic computer attached to it.
Each of us has different wiring and different ears, and have learned differently.
In effect, some can't hear for fecal matter and some of us are highly trained.
And the two shall never meet.
If you look at what I said about how the ear works and then look at what happens to the fundamental of the complex dynamics of a power cord and the equipment, as an integrated system...when the equipment (DUT) is under draw complex draw situations..then it is clear that yes, a power cord can easily be heard to make a difference.
This is most easily discerned in systems that use traditional rectified AC power, due to the straightforward dynamic connectivity of the DC rails to the AC power.
If you can't hear it, then you are not capable of this feat of hearing, do not know what you are doing, do not possess the skills to discern this, or cannot hear it.
It's not a sin to be incapable of figuring out the connection between the ear and the electrical situation, or not being able to hear it.
But it is ignorant and childish to slam those who can observe and elucidate the differences and the why of their existence. It's a question of learned skills, innate hearing capacity, and then figuring out the why of the situation.
In some cases, this about keeping this understanding private, so that it can be used to produce product for buyers. the buyers have that innate hearing capacity and they have taught themselves to hear these differences.
I myself can easily hear the differences that different 'high end' power cords produce, but I myself don't bother to play with or use them.
To aid in the understanding, again.. I'm in the area of hearing capacity, and associated learning... of something akin to a Usain Bolt, or an Aryton Senna. So are others. Many others. Training plays quite strongly into it.
~~~~~~~~~
Not everyone has that skill, and that innate capacity. I will not tolerate being called crap for being capable in that way, by blowhards who are not.
Each of us has different wiring and different ears, and have learned differently.
In effect, some can't hear for fecal matter and some of us are highly trained.
And the two shall never meet.
If you look at what I said about how the ear works and then look at what happens to the fundamental of the complex dynamics of a power cord and the equipment, as an integrated system...when the equipment (DUT) is under draw complex draw situations..then it is clear that yes, a power cord can easily be heard to make a difference.
This is most easily discerned in systems that use traditional rectified AC power, due to the straightforward dynamic connectivity of the DC rails to the AC power.
If you can't hear it, then you are not capable of this feat of hearing, do not know what you are doing, do not possess the skills to discern this, or cannot hear it.
It's not a sin to be incapable of figuring out the connection between the ear and the electrical situation, or not being able to hear it.
But it is ignorant and childish to slam those who can observe and elucidate the differences and the why of their existence. It's a question of learned skills, innate hearing capacity, and then figuring out the why of the situation.
In some cases, this about keeping this understanding private, so that it can be used to produce product for buyers. the buyers have that innate hearing capacity and they have taught themselves to hear these differences.
I myself can easily hear the differences that different 'high end' power cords produce, but I myself don't bother to play with or use them.
To aid in the understanding, again.. I'm in the area of hearing capacity, and associated learning... of something akin to a Usain Bolt, or an Aryton Senna. So are others. Many others. Training plays quite strongly into it.
~~~~~~~~~
Not everyone has that skill, and that innate capacity. I will not tolerate being called crap for being capable in that way, by blowhards who are not.
Last edited:
Remember:
To argue that someone else cannot possibly hear such vanishing levels of distortion is the exact same thing as arguing that all people on the planet must be of exactly the same mental design, exactly the same wiring and exactly the same intelligence/IQ as all others, but coming from an ego standpoint of all others must be as you.
And that, is categorically insane.
To argue that someone else cannot possibly hear such vanishing levels of distortion is the exact same thing as arguing that all people on the planet must be of exactly the same mental design, exactly the same wiring and exactly the same intelligence/IQ as all others, but coming from an ego standpoint of all others must be as you.
And that, is categorically insane.
The biggest reason why there are so many snake oil cords is simply a economic one:
It's way easier to design and make a high-endish looking cord and sell it for some
hundred bucks than to design a really good amplifier. You'd just need parts for $10
and some nice marketing ********. Then spend some money on advertisements in
Hifi magazines.
Same with cones, gold plates fuses, isolation platforms and so on.
Don't fool me with "some hear the difference and some don't". I'm able to hear
different caps, op-amps and rectifier diodes. Same with value variations of caps in
the feedback path. The difference is, I can also measure them.
More than 10 years ago I've made a couple of mains cords on my own, same material
as some well known brands. Shielded and not. No difference. I also made some mains
filters, external and in-box. Yes, these do make some difference, depending on the
environment.
So don't call people dumb who negate differences of simple power cords.
It's way easier to design and make a high-endish looking cord and sell it for some
hundred bucks than to design a really good amplifier. You'd just need parts for $10
and some nice marketing ********. Then spend some money on advertisements in
Hifi magazines.
Same with cones, gold plates fuses, isolation platforms and so on.
Don't fool me with "some hear the difference and some don't". I'm able to hear
different caps, op-amps and rectifier diodes. Same with value variations of caps in
the feedback path. The difference is, I can also measure them.
More than 10 years ago I've made a couple of mains cords on my own, same material
as some well known brands. Shielded and not. No difference. I also made some mains
filters, external and in-box. Yes, these do make some difference, depending on the
environment.
So don't call people dumb who negate differences of simple power cords.
In my case I am saying it because I work in electronics quite often doing power supply layout for very sensitive equipment and get quite involved with the EMC and signal integrity side if things, if a piece of copper wire a metre or so long carrying the already polluted mains makes a difference there is something seriously wrong.
I am also a believer in GOOD power supplies (and clean power) to any equipment, if you don't provide good clean power then everything else down the line is flawed to start with.
I've also been an EMI/EMC engineer at times, and I agree that if the power cord is having a noticeable effect, the equipment is most likely sensitive to either conducted or radiated emissions. The solution in both cases is a power inlet filter. When I build things for myself or a friend, I use a filtered power entry module to minimize that sort of thing.
I am failing to see the connection between an athlete and a race car driver and this subject. But that's OK.
I think most of "us" are in some kind of agreement.
First we agree that the AC feeds to our homes or apartments are crawling with RF conducted in from any source you can name. Think of this as your water supply to your spigots. The water comes to you from miles and miles away. It's discolored with iron, it may be acidic, it may be slightly caustic, it's got chlorine in it, etc. You can taste it. It taints your tea and coffee or anything else you use it for in cooking. It's in your cake and cookies. OK...? Agreement so far?
How do you fix that? Well, you use what is called a whole-house "conditioner" system or, a "point-of-use" filter just before water enters your drinking glass. A good water filter/conditioner will attack multiple bad guy stuff in your water using different techniques. The partial analogy being made here is the use of both parallel shunting and series blocking used in good "electrical" conditioners.
So KBF, please tell me how a 2m, $500 (or more) "hose" connected to your spigot can cleanse that crummy water delivered to your house. Explain that to us in human, common terms. Tell me what in that gold-plated, shielded hose is going to make my coffee taste much better - other than cognitive dissonance (i.e. I paid $500, so it must taste better...). I'm just asking.
Hey TickTock: Loved your comment on another infamous snake-oil product: Tip Toes LMAO Myself I use sorbothane hemispheres on everything. Those are known-good vibration blockers. Very much like passive ferrites. Eats vibration by making it "work" where the byproduct is heat.
I think most of "us" are in some kind of agreement.
First we agree that the AC feeds to our homes or apartments are crawling with RF conducted in from any source you can name. Think of this as your water supply to your spigots. The water comes to you from miles and miles away. It's discolored with iron, it may be acidic, it may be slightly caustic, it's got chlorine in it, etc. You can taste it. It taints your tea and coffee or anything else you use it for in cooking. It's in your cake and cookies. OK...? Agreement so far?
How do you fix that? Well, you use what is called a whole-house "conditioner" system or, a "point-of-use" filter just before water enters your drinking glass. A good water filter/conditioner will attack multiple bad guy stuff in your water using different techniques. The partial analogy being made here is the use of both parallel shunting and series blocking used in good "electrical" conditioners.
So KBF, please tell me how a 2m, $500 (or more) "hose" connected to your spigot can cleanse that crummy water delivered to your house. Explain that to us in human, common terms. Tell me what in that gold-plated, shielded hose is going to make my coffee taste much better - other than cognitive dissonance (i.e. I paid $500, so it must taste better...). I'm just asking.
Hey TickTock: Loved your comment on another infamous snake-oil product: Tip Toes
LMAO Myself I use sorbothane hemispheres on everything. Those are known-good vibration blockers. Very much like passive ferrites. Eats vibration by making it "work" where the byproduct is heat.- Status
- Not open for further replies.