I think There may be some confusion here.
The process:
I wound un-insulated silver wire onto the dowel leaving a small space in-between each wind, in one direction. Then I enameled the wire on the dowel, letting it dry. This wire now became insulated. I then wound a second layer of un-insulated wire in the opposite direction in-between the first layer's windings crossing the first layer each turn in an Ayrton-Perry wind (thanks Frank!). I then enameled that to insulate it.
Then I connected the two windings at each end.
This is why they look like crap. If I had insulated wire they would be nice looking.
The process:
I wound un-insulated silver wire onto the dowel leaving a small space in-between each wind, in one direction. Then I enameled the wire on the dowel, letting it dry. This wire now became insulated. I then wound a second layer of un-insulated wire in the opposite direction in-between the first layer's windings crossing the first layer each turn in an Ayrton-Perry wind (thanks Frank!). I then enameled that to insulate it.
Then I connected the two windings at each end.
This is why they look like crap. If I had insulated wire they would be nice looking.
so here's the question,
If it really does make an audible difference, one would need to establish why yes?
The old "silver sounds better" thing I think will not get us any closer to understanding audio electronics. This is an electrical component, thus the electrical properties at audio frequencies are what will make an audible difference.
In installing these new resistors what have you changed?
Resistive material
size of the resistor
physical configuration (which will affect parasitic capacitance and inductance among other things)
distance of the new resistor from crossover and loudspeaker components
signal path length
If this crossover is inside the speaker cabinet you have also changed the internal volume of the box.
So out of all this, how does one get to blame the silver for all the change? Each of what I mentioned above will have some effect. But until you know how much, you are just shooting in the dark. Have you taken a look at the new vs old crossover on a scope?
This seems to be a lot of work for a crossover resistor so if it does make an improvement, the abiltity to create as good a change for less money and effort would be a bonus. Perhaps all you need to do is buy some bifilar wound resistors and you will get all the benefits. Perhaps not.
Chris
If it really does make an audible difference, one would need to establish why yes?
The old "silver sounds better" thing I think will not get us any closer to understanding audio electronics. This is an electrical component, thus the electrical properties at audio frequencies are what will make an audible difference.
In installing these new resistors what have you changed?
Resistive material
size of the resistor
physical configuration (which will affect parasitic capacitance and inductance among other things)
distance of the new resistor from crossover and loudspeaker components
signal path length
If this crossover is inside the speaker cabinet you have also changed the internal volume of the box.
So out of all this, how does one get to blame the silver for all the change? Each of what I mentioned above will have some effect. But until you know how much, you are just shooting in the dark. Have you taken a look at the new vs old crossover on a scope?
This seems to be a lot of work for a crossover resistor so if it does make an improvement, the abiltity to create as good a change for less money and effort would be a bonus. Perhaps all you need to do is buy some bifilar wound resistors and you will get all the benefits. Perhaps not.
Chris
Re: so here's the question,
These are outboard crossovers.
The position on the hard wired Maple crossover board is the same as the old one, the size is much bigger.
They replaced RCN ww resistors.
I don't have a scope, I listen to the system instead.
It was a lot of work, but I have never spent three hours working on my stereo that was more beneficial.
I don't know why they sound as good as they do. They have no right to. They are so simple and so ugly.
I will be replacing as many resistors as possible with silver ones.
I don't expect the same improvement as the first ones but I do expect an improvement.
Why don't you give it a try.
Christopher said:
These are outboard crossovers.
The position on the hard wired Maple crossover board is the same as the old one, the size is much bigger.
They replaced RCN ww resistors.
I don't have a scope, I listen to the system instead.
It was a lot of work, but I have never spent three hours working on my stereo that was more beneficial.
I don't know why they sound as good as they do. They have no right to. They are so simple and so ugly.
I will be replacing as many resistors as possible with silver ones.
I don't expect the same improvement as the first ones but I do expect an improvement.
Why don't you give it a try.
Congratulations on those resistors!
I'd like to try 'em in my speakers. My tweeter attenuation resistor is only 1ohm, so it's a nice candidate.
However, looking at Audiocom's price list for silver wire, I realise it would cost an absolute bloody fortune to make one! Their stuff is: "Long-grain Pure Silver Wire (5N) 99.997%" - maybe a little fancy for the job? I tried this in an interconnect and the sound was thin and harsh, if detailed (not the same as a resistor though!).
http://www.audiocominternational.com/store/silverwire.asp
How on earth was your silver wire so cheap?!?!?
Is the copper alternative in the same ballpark sq-wise? I have little silver elsewhere in the audio-chain, so I'm not super keen to use it if copper will be excellent too. Maybe some 'ordinary' enamelled copper wire would do a good job..?
One more thing: when you say gauge, do you mean AWG or SWG?
Thanks,
-Simon
I'd like to try 'em in my speakers. My tweeter attenuation resistor is only 1ohm, so it's a nice candidate.
However, looking at Audiocom's price list for silver wire, I realise it would cost an absolute bloody fortune to make one! Their stuff is: "Long-grain Pure Silver Wire (5N) 99.997%" - maybe a little fancy for the job? I tried this in an interconnect and the sound was thin and harsh, if detailed (not the same as a resistor though!).
http://www.audiocominternational.com/store/silverwire.asp
How on earth was your silver wire so cheap?!?!?
Is the copper alternative in the same ballpark sq-wise? I have little silver elsewhere in the audio-chain, so I'm not super keen to use it if copper will be excellent too. Maybe some 'ordinary' enamelled copper wire would do a good job..?
One more thing: when you say gauge, do you mean AWG or SWG?
Thanks,
-Simon
What made this so affordable was the wire was un-insulated and sourced from a jewelry supplier like Myron Tobac.
It is sold by the ounce and very inexpensive.
I use the fine silver but for resistors maybe the sterling would be better.
I mean AWG.
I have thought of a better way to do the winding.
I will wind two un-insulated silver wires at the same time right next to each other tightly, when done I secure one wire and unwrap the other one. This leaves a perfect void between each wind for the second layer to sit in after the first is enameled.
All in all it should make for a nice tight wind.
I have a lot of silver in the chain and every little bit more has helped.
I am impatiently waiting for my silver foil PIO Mundorf coupling caps to arrive from Germany.
And I just ordered the wire for a few DIY 16 AWG solid silver power cords for my SACD player and mono blocks.
I've yet to have copper win a listening test so I will replace them with silver ones.
Radio shacks magnet wire pack should allow you to experiment for very little money.
Let us know how you do.
It is sold by the ounce and very inexpensive.
I use the fine silver but for resistors maybe the sterling would be better.
I mean AWG.
I have thought of a better way to do the winding.
I will wind two un-insulated silver wires at the same time right next to each other tightly, when done I secure one wire and unwrap the other one. This leaves a perfect void between each wind for the second layer to sit in after the first is enameled.
All in all it should make for a nice tight wind.
I have a lot of silver in the chain and every little bit more has helped.
I am impatiently waiting for my silver foil PIO Mundorf coupling caps to arrive from Germany.
And I just ordered the wire for a few DIY 16 AWG solid silver power cords for my SACD player and mono blocks.
I've yet to have copper win a listening test so I will replace them with silver ones.
Radio shacks magnet wire pack should allow you to experiment for very little money.
Let us know how you do.
Hi,
Silver isn't actually as expensive as most people think...
There's silver and there's silver though; don't use jeweler silver for audio, it's not nearly pure enough.
The problem Tom's project is facing is that he may have to order a one off and that often involves a minimum order of 2 Kgs of silver which quickly amounts to 2K Euro.
Cheers,
Silver isn't actually as expensive as most people think...
There's silver and there's silver though; don't use jeweler silver for audio, it's not nearly pure enough.
The problem Tom's project is facing is that he may have to order a one off and that often involves a minimum order of 2 Kgs of silver which quickly amounts to 2K Euro.
Cheers,
fdegrove said:Hi,
Silver isn't actually as expensive as most people think...
There's silver and there's silver though; don't use jeweler silver for audio, it's not nearly pure enough.
The problem Tom's project is facing is that he may have to order a one off and that often involves a minimum order of 2 Kgs of silver which quickly amounts to 2K Euro.
Cheers,
I am not quite ready to make that jump.
But I'm not too far.
By the way, thanks for all your help.
Any interest in a group buy on some quality insulated silver wire?
It would be great for interconnects also I bet. Maybe in a litz design.
I should clarify that I have not bought anything from Myron Tobac but I know others have recommended them.
The price estimate was based on their .999 fine silver wire prices. Which I think would be a great place to start with this experiment.
Hi,
It was my pleasure, Tom.
Keep in mind that most (93%) of all silver wire used in the audio industry comes from the US (one single company), goes through Europe and ends up in MM, MC cartridges, IC and LS wire in the most respected high-end companies...
In this case it would be apropiate to say you've been talking to the horse's mouth directly....Sort of as I' the man behind the design scene.
Best of luck,
It was my pleasure, Tom.
Keep in mind that most (93%) of all silver wire used in the audio industry comes from the US (one single company), goes through Europe and ends up in MM, MC cartridges, IC and LS wire in the most respected high-end companies...
In this case it would be apropiate to say you've been talking to the horse's mouth directly....Sort of as I' the man behind the design scene.
Best of luck,
Hi,
Thanks for all the info Tom. I'm actually rather reluctant to put any silver in my system, nearly always it's sounded too bright. I guess the colouration it received doesn't suit my speakers and rest of my system. I realise the harshness is probably due to impure silver and/or using too thin conductors.
I think I'll try some resistors using copper instead for now, at least until I find somewhere that isn't a rip-off! I know people who work for a silverware company and can get things at trade price. Needless to say I asked about wire.. they don't do it Not that I think using sterling (92.5% iirc) silver could possibly be as good as pure copper.
Hmm, you mention Radioshack, I wish we had that in the UK! We used to have Tandy, which is similar, but I think that's all but gone now. I have to put up with comparatively costly Maplins and Farnell...
I like your new winding method Tom, sounds good.
I really need to get my x-overs offboard before doing this!
Thanks,
-Simon
Thanks for all the info Tom. I'm actually rather reluctant to put any silver in my system, nearly always it's sounded too bright. I guess the colouration it received doesn't suit my speakers and rest of my system. I realise the harshness is probably due to impure silver and/or using too thin conductors.
I think I'll try some resistors using copper instead for now, at least until I find somewhere that isn't a rip-off! I know people who work for a silverware company and can get things at trade price. Needless to say I asked about wire.. they don't do it
Not that I think using sterling (92.5% iirc) silver could possibly be as good as pure copper.Interesting, and to me that explains perfectly why silver gets such a bad press for sound quality!! (if poor silver is compared to good copper...) Ah, you didn't mean 93% purity did you...? Well, it could still be the reason.
Hmm, you mention Radioshack, I wish we had that in the UK! We used to have Tandy, which is similar, but I think that's all but gone now. I have to put up with comparatively costly Maplins and Farnell...
I like your new winding method Tom, sounds good.
I really need to get my x-overs offboard before doing this!
Thanks,
-Simon
tom1356 said:
Not currently in the market for silver wire, but I know a few folks who have bought teflon insulated silver wire from the following folks:
http://www.a-msystems.com/physiology/wirerod/silvertef.aspx
They make this for medical work, so its quite high quality. The people I know used it to rewire tonearms and were pleased with the result. Some of this wire is very thin and easy to break, so be sure to get an appropriate diameter.
---Gary
The Interface Connection Is A Big Part of The Equation..........
In my experience, silver plated copper, or pure silver wire does not go well with lead containing solders - adds a nasty note that is not there with lead-free solders, and not there with silver free wires or solders.
Silver + lead solders sound nasty to my ear also.
I think this is some of the basis of bad press regarding silver.
Eric.
In my experience, silver plated copper, or pure silver wire does not go well with lead containing solders - adds a nasty note that is not there with lead-free solders, and not there with silver free wires or solders.
Silver + lead solders sound nasty to my ear also.
I think this is some of the basis of bad press regarding silver.
Eric.
Well, when I made my silver interconnects, I used lead-free solder I think, and it was silver-loaded, and not cheap. The sound took everyones ears off who heard it. It was snappy and detailed, but so what?
I guess it works in some systems, but I've heard few that are truly free from harshness, so I doubt many could accomodate this kind of wire... Would thicker gauge help with this?
-Simon
I guess it works in some systems, but I've heard few that are truly free from harshness, so I doubt many could accomodate this kind of wire... Would thicker gauge help with this?
-Simon
Hi Simon,SimontY said:
The solder is the mission critical bit.
There are two types of solder containing silver - those containing lead (60%Tin,38%Lead,2%Silver) and those without (96%Tin, 4%Silver).
The lead type hardens to a pretty very shiny silver colour, and the lead free type cools to a frosted appearance - you will know which is which.
The shiny ones suck sonically with solid silver wire and silver plated copper wire and produces highs that will drive your dog out of the room - it sounds like this is what you have.
The dull looking ones are harder to do correctly, and if anything give an ever so slightly quieting characteristic that improves audibility of low level stuff and never gets nasty sounding - I know which I prefer.
In my experince good silver with appropriate solder gives nice detail and quietness, and does not get nasty, snappy or fatiguing.
Eric.
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