Hi. Looking for capacitors to replace the cheap nasty electrolytics in my dacmagic 1. My first mod project so please excuse my ignorance.
First queston....I have found this guide on upgrading a dacmagic 2 , and it recommends changing some of the values, would i be able to use this guide as a reference for the values required, and what effect/benefit does changing the values offer? or am i better replacing caps like for like. (http://lickham.co.uk/pdfs/dacmagic.pdf)
Second query......Could someone recommend which capacitors would be best for replacing the existing ones....I was advised to use, rubicon zl for the big 3300uf and 2200uf caps, but they dont go up to 3300uf 25v, would the ZLH be a better option for these? And was told rubicon za for >6v and sanyo ocson for < 6v,
I had considered nichicon or elnas, but i am unsure which caps will be best used for which section on the pcb. Wanted to use some reasonably high quality caps, that dont cost a fortune.
Thanks
First queston....I have found this guide on upgrading a dacmagic 2 , and it recommends changing some of the values, would i be able to use this guide as a reference for the values required, and what effect/benefit does changing the values offer? or am i better replacing caps like for like. (http://lickham.co.uk/pdfs/dacmagic.pdf)
Second query......Could someone recommend which capacitors would be best for replacing the existing ones....I was advised to use, rubicon zl for the big 3300uf and 2200uf caps, but they dont go up to 3300uf 25v, would the ZLH be a better option for these? And was told rubicon za for >6v and sanyo ocson for < 6v,
I had considered nichicon or elnas, but i am unsure which caps will be best used for which section on the pcb. Wanted to use some reasonably high quality caps, that dont cost a fortune.
Thanks
I'm much like you, almost a newbie. I can share some links that provide much information (legend?) about caps. I have done some of the mods to the MUSE Dac mentioned. I have dabbled in high-end caps. I'll admit I can't hear a difference, good or bad. But I will follow this thread with interest! Thank you.
Doing your own DAC mods: a Primer
Capacitor Musings Article By Jon L DIY Audio Kits Reviews
ecp.cc
Doing your own DAC mods: a Primer
Capacitor Musings Article By Jon L DIY Audio Kits Reviews
ecp.cc
I've replaced all electrolytic capacitors in 3 power amplifiers, a preamp, a disco mixer, 2 radios, and 2 hammond organs in the last two years. I'm listening to a 1970 dynakit amp, and a 1992 disco mixer (turntable magnetic cartridge interface) right now. My computer stopped talking to peripherals 2 weeks ago and I replaced 2 caps on it to get back online. More caps are on the way to do them all in the PC. I buy e-caps based on the hours design life. Nothing under 3000 hours. There have been no hum problems after I put these in- I think the cheap **** is being screened out. Rubicon, Nichicon, Panasonic, all make short life and long life caps. Buy the long life ones. United Chemicon I have uised, but their life spec has a worse ripple current at the end of life than the first three, so they are "massaging the numbers" to look good. Where the equipment has can caps (1970 or earlier) I pull the can out, plug the hole with screen wire, and install solder terminal strips from tubesandmore.com or triodeelectronics.com. In europe some guitar parts shops have turret board which can be sawed up, but I haven't seen any TRW Cinch type solder terminal strips. When you drill the hole to install the screw for mounting, use a magnet to pick up the trash as you drill. I use a hand crank drill for #6 machine screw holes.
Farnell has the hours life on the selector chart, other vendors you have to download the datasheet and read it.
Tin-Lead solder I use a WP25 iron mostly, but on the ROHS compliant PC board I had to use a 130 W pistol iron and then after I had the components out, drill the holes out with a pin vise. Europe wants more and more electronics in their landfills, I can tell. They have legally required silver solder holding in caps with a design life of 1 to 5 years.
I don't have an opinion about changing parts values. One can download an Electronic Design Assistant (see wikipedia EDA) on an up to date computer and run simulations, or buy the parts and try them out. Usually shipping charge is more than the caps I buy.
Farnell has the hours life on the selector chart, other vendors you have to download the datasheet and read it.
Tin-Lead solder I use a WP25 iron mostly, but on the ROHS compliant PC board I had to use a 130 W pistol iron and then after I had the components out, drill the holes out with a pin vise. Europe wants more and more electronics in their landfills, I can tell. They have legally required silver solder holding in caps with a design life of 1 to 5 years.
I don't have an opinion about changing parts values. One can download an Electronic Design Assistant (see wikipedia EDA) on an up to date computer and run simulations, or buy the parts and try them out. Usually shipping charge is more than the caps I buy.
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@indianajo
The reason why Europe has gone the RoHS route is because a lot of equipment will end up as landfill rather than being recycled, despite having several (free) options for recycling at our disposal. Reason: it takes less time to chuck something in the bin than bring it to a collection point, so some of us will always be tempted not to recycle.
The amount of electronics in households has gone up from a few items to many many more in the last few decennia. As a result, the amount of discarded electronics in landfill has also gone up dramatically.
Because lead is poisonous and will eventually leach into the groundwater, it was inevitable that this had to come to a halt.
Yes, leadfree solders (contain only a very small amount of silver, BTW) are harder to work with, but now that some time has gone by, leadfree joints are proving stronger and longer lived than joints with lead.
The RoHS directive isn't limited to lead. It also restricts the use of:
Mercury (Hg);
Cadmium (Cd);
Hexavalent chromium (Cr6+);
Polybrominated biphenyls (PBB);
Polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE)
The reason why Europe has gone the RoHS route is because a lot of equipment will end up as landfill rather than being recycled, despite having several (free) options for recycling at our disposal. Reason: it takes less time to chuck something in the bin than bring it to a collection point, so some of us will always be tempted not to recycle.
The amount of electronics in households has gone up from a few items to many many more in the last few decennia. As a result, the amount of discarded electronics in landfill has also gone up dramatically.
Because lead is poisonous and will eventually leach into the groundwater, it was inevitable that this had to come to a halt.
Yes, leadfree solders (contain only a very small amount of silver, BTW) are harder to work with, but now that some time has gone by, leadfree joints are proving stronger and longer lived than joints with lead.
The RoHS directive isn't limited to lead. It also restricts the use of:
Mercury (Hg);
Cadmium (Cd);
Hexavalent chromium (Cr6+);
Polybrominated biphenyls (PBB);
Polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE)
The lead in electronics is a minor percentage of the world usage of lead, in the bottom 1%. The lead in tin lead solder does not leach out that readily, so would not actually pollute the water system, like the fear mongers would have us believe. Solder joint reliability, work and research is still being done on that one, hence life support and high rel is not using it yet.
Of course we now burn more energy to produce the elctronics, due to the higher reflow temperatures, so its not all bad.
Of course we now burn more energy to produce the elctronics, due to the higher reflow temperatures, so its not all bad.
Tin whiskers and other facts about lead free solder.
http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf
Summary quote.
"No mitigation technique other than the addition of at least 3% Pb by weight to Sn has proven itself to be totally adequate in the field
–Multiple research efforts to develop effective mitigation for tin whiskers"
Another excerpt.
Lead leaching into ground water.
http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf
Summary quote.
"No mitigation technique other than the addition of at least 3% Pb by weight to Sn has proven itself to be totally adequate in the field
–Multiple research efforts to develop effective mitigation for tin whiskers"
Another excerpt.
Lead leaching into ground water.
Attachments
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If Europe was serious about keeping electronics out of landfills, they would have required 10000 hour electrolytic caps. (epoxy sealant instead of rubber). I believe this legislation was written by the ignorant to fill the needs of large corporations that enjoy the prospect of selling the same customer over and over again. The whole lead usage thing went insane when everybody was buying a new PC display every 11 months, each of which had lead X-ray shielding. The caps in displays were lasting about a year, as were the caps in the switcher power supplies in the PC's. I've got a stack of dead PCAT supplies and CRT's. Maybe next winter I'll be skilled enough to fix my first switcher supply. Up to now I've been cutting them up for RF chokes, NTC resistors, and lightning arrestors (MOS)
As far as keeping equipment out of landfills, all it takes is a little gold. You can't buy a dead PC around here except at Goodwill/Salvation Army, and people in Florida tell me that is illegal there. I didn't even get the CPU back on the PC I turned in for a bad PCI bus slot struck by lightning. That ******* repairman threw away the whole mainboard and my Windows 98 source disk, too. PC salvage all goes in a big drum at the PC repair place, to be shipped off somewhere for money. I could really use several dozen of salvage 0.3" spacing headers to make an organ stop sequencer, but I've found 2 salvage $4 PC's in a year.
As far as keeping equipment out of landfills, all it takes is a little gold. You can't buy a dead PC around here except at Goodwill/Salvation Army, and people in Florida tell me that is illegal there. I didn't even get the CPU back on the PC I turned in for a bad PCI bus slot struck by lightning. That ******* repairman threw away the whole mainboard and my Windows 98 source disk, too. PC salvage all goes in a big drum at the PC repair place, to be shipped off somewhere for money. I could really use several dozen of salvage 0.3" spacing headers to make an organ stop sequencer, but I've found 2 salvage $4 PC's in a year.
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@RJM1
Interesting read, but there's a lot I have my doubts about.
E.g. the whiskering problem is something I have not yet witnessed, and I have been working nearly 6 years with leadfree solder and leadfree products. I work in industrial electronics, BTW. Also, in those six years I have not seen an increase in inexplicable faults or increase in products returned for repair.
True, in the beginning of the leadfree era, everyone in the company I work for had to adjust to the new process and there were some solder process related issues that had to be solved. They have, and apart from a higher tendency to form solder bridges between closely spaced pins during wave soldering, there aren't really any problems with leadfree soldering that stand out.
When it comes to desoldering through hole devices from pcbs with fully plated holes, I prefer SnPb solder. Other than that, I don't really care. And yes, we still make a number of products with SnPb solder, including some that I can't imagine being exempt from RoHS regulations.
The fact that medical and transportation are going to lose RoHS exempt status pretty soon means that leadfree has proven itself enough to make that happen. In fact, we have been producing leadfree for a customer in medical appliances for several years now.
Was there as much apprehension about unleaded fuels as there is about leadfree solder?
Interesting read, but there's a lot I have my doubts about.
E.g. the whiskering problem is something I have not yet witnessed, and I have been working nearly 6 years with leadfree solder and leadfree products. I work in industrial electronics, BTW. Also, in those six years I have not seen an increase in inexplicable faults or increase in products returned for repair.
True, in the beginning of the leadfree era, everyone in the company I work for had to adjust to the new process and there were some solder process related issues that had to be solved. They have, and apart from a higher tendency to form solder bridges between closely spaced pins during wave soldering, there aren't really any problems with leadfree soldering that stand out.
When it comes to desoldering through hole devices from pcbs with fully plated holes, I prefer SnPb solder. Other than that, I don't really care. And yes, we still make a number of products with SnPb solder, including some that I can't imagine being exempt from RoHS regulations.
The fact that medical and transportation are going to lose RoHS exempt status pretty soon means that leadfree has proven itself enough to make that happen. In fact, we have been producing leadfree for a customer in medical appliances for several years now.
Was there as much apprehension about unleaded fuels as there is about leadfree solder?
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Tech magazines were full of doom articles about lead free gasoline, fueled by the ads for the "lead substitute" industry. Actually lead free gasoline increased the service life of my '59 ford cars. Lead oxide used to accumulate on the exhaust valves and burn them at about 60000 miles. I used to spend 2 days scraping lead deposits out of heads that didn't need to go to the re-grind shop. I haven't burned a valve in years. Now the ethanol 85% fuel is perfect for all the hi-octane-hi-compression engines I never bought.
But desoldering without destroying irreplaceble IC's is hard enough with tin-lead solder. This computer mainboard was impossible with a WP25, and the WP60 is $80- didn't buy one. Neither did sucking the solder out with old wire and tin paste work either. Had to drill it out. )(*@#&^ Now with silver solder and SMD's working on some items is more like microsurgery than repair work. I'm stocking up on 60's organs and hifi equipment now, those days aren't coming back. Buy once, recap, and play it is my motto. No sense spending 2000 hours learning a piece on an organ if all the controls and sequences are going to change after a custom IC or display fails.
But desoldering without destroying irreplaceble IC's is hard enough with tin-lead solder. This computer mainboard was impossible with a WP25, and the WP60 is $80- didn't buy one. Neither did sucking the solder out with old wire and tin paste work either. Had to drill it out. )(*@#&^ Now with silver solder and SMD's working on some items is more like microsurgery than repair work. I'm stocking up on 60's organs and hifi equipment now, those days aren't coming back. Buy once, recap, and play it is my motto. No sense spending 2000 hours learning a piece on an organ if all the controls and sequences are going to change after a custom IC or display fails.
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I believe the first few PS3 models had a big problem with lead free solder because of the excessive heat there main processors put out. A large percentage of the units failed after 2 or 3 years because the heat cycling would crack solder connections. I fixed ours by reflowing the solder with a heat gun (it only lasted a few months before the problem re appeared). Sony should have recalled the things!
Could I be a pain and gently nudge the thread back to the original topic?
All this talk about solder is very interesting, but may I ask a Capacitor related question
@Soldermizer
Thanks for the info regarding caps, have been reading through the articles with much interest, and has filled in a few of the gaps in my knowledge(but unfortunately not all!!)
Also found quite an interesting thread on another forum (hope im not stepping on any toes) Resistors , Capacitors - Gearslutz.com
@ Everyone
After a lot of reading and researching through various sites I am getting closer to making a decision regarding which caps to use to replace the leaky electrolytics in my DM1, but still have a few questions which I am hoping someone can answer.
1. For the AC smoothing caps after the diodes (10 x 3300uf 25v) I was looking at either Vishay BC or Rubycon ZLH, both the same uf and v as the originals. There is a slight difference in price between the 2. Will either of these 2 give good results, also should I bypass these with a quality film cap, and if so what values would i use for each to replace a 3300uf 25v?
2. For the < 6v digital caps I was advised to use OSCON's, but am having issues finding suitable ones that are not Surface mounted on farnell. All the caps on the digital rails are 100uf 10v. Could someone recommend a decent quality replacement from farnell for this purpose.
Finally....I assume the rest of the caps are all in the signal path.....What would be my best bet for these.....There are 35v caps which are all 10uf...The rest are all 16v caps 2200uf and 47uf. and again, should i be bypassing these with a film cap?
My apologies again for my ignorance, this aint half a steep learning curve
All this talk about solder is very interesting, but may I ask a Capacitor related question
@Soldermizer
Thanks for the info regarding caps, have been reading through the articles with much interest, and has filled in a few of the gaps in my knowledge(but unfortunately not all!!)
Also found quite an interesting thread on another forum (hope im not stepping on any toes) Resistors , Capacitors - Gearslutz.com
@ Everyone
After a lot of reading and researching through various sites I am getting closer to making a decision regarding which caps to use to replace the leaky electrolytics in my DM1, but still have a few questions which I am hoping someone can answer.
1. For the AC smoothing caps after the diodes (10 x 3300uf 25v) I was looking at either Vishay BC or Rubycon ZLH, both the same uf and v as the originals. There is a slight difference in price between the 2. Will either of these 2 give good results, also should I bypass these with a quality film cap, and if so what values would i use for each to replace a 3300uf 25v?
2. For the < 6v digital caps I was advised to use OSCON's, but am having issues finding suitable ones that are not Surface mounted on farnell. All the caps on the digital rails are 100uf 10v. Could someone recommend a decent quality replacement from farnell for this purpose.
Finally....I assume the rest of the caps are all in the signal path.....What would be my best bet for these.....There are 35v caps which are all 10uf...The rest are all 16v caps 2200uf and 47uf. and again, should i be bypassing these with a film cap?
My apologies again for my ignorance, this aint half a steep learning curve
I see you didn't read my original post. I checked farnell's UK stock, for 3000-3600 uf and for 25-35 v. The ZLH has a rating of 10000 hours @ 105 deg C. That is state of the art. The only Vishay BC I see is an axial lead cap with a rating of 500 hours @ 85 deg C. Now, if you use your equipment 4 hours an evening, do you really want to do this job again in 3 months? (500 hours). The axial leads might be convenient, but there comes a time to adapt and move on. I use terminal strips to mount radial lead caps in inappropriate locations.
100 uf @ 10, you don't have to buy electrolytic caps. Film caps have a better life. After you click passive components, and click film dielectric, then click stock only and and 100 uf. Any voltage above 3 will do. You should look at the legnth carefully and decide if you can fit them in. For power supply work any film dielectric will work, but for filters or interstage couplers (10% tolerance or better) polyprophylene dielectric is supposed to sound better. Since I was replacing 50 year old paper caps, I didn't worry much when I bought some polyethylene dielectric.
I've been buying leaded 100 uf @ 25 v caps from the US farnell affiliate for about $.11 each for 5000 hour versions. These were rubicon 25yxh100mefc6.3x11's. Use the minimum and maximum function of the farnell table to find the best bargains on caps.
You can exclude the SMD stuff on the farnell tables by clicking the "through hole" mounting option. I always click the stock button and the exclude direct order button. I don't want to wait 3 months for my parts and I don't want to pay $25 a line to have stuff flown over from the UK.
100 uf @ 10, you don't have to buy electrolytic caps. Film caps have a better life. After you click passive components, and click film dielectric, then click stock only and and 100 uf. Any voltage above 3 will do. You should look at the legnth carefully and decide if you can fit them in. For power supply work any film dielectric will work, but for filters or interstage couplers (10% tolerance or better) polyprophylene dielectric is supposed to sound better. Since I was replacing 50 year old paper caps, I didn't worry much when I bought some polyethylene dielectric.
I've been buying leaded 100 uf @ 25 v caps from the US farnell affiliate for about $.11 each for 5000 hour versions. These were rubicon 25yxh100mefc6.3x11's. Use the minimum and maximum function of the farnell table to find the best bargains on caps.
You can exclude the SMD stuff on the farnell tables by clicking the "through hole" mounting option. I always click the stock button and the exclude direct order button. I don't want to wait 3 months for my parts and I don't want to pay $25 a line to have stuff flown over from the UK.
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@Indianajo
Thanks again for the info, and yes I did read your original post, As well as half the ruddy internet looking for info
And yes, lifespan is critical, dont want to go through all this work and be back doing the same again next year...Want to be buiding a new DAC, or doing further mods to this one.
Although most of the technical specifiations dont mean that much to me at this point, Going on all the information presented to me, the ZLH's look the best option for Smoothing. There is a Vishay BC capacitor I was considering - farnell item number 1165607, which when reading the spec pdf, quotes near comparable lifespan to the zlh. They are more expensive than the Rubycons...Not sure if i would be scoring a goal with them?
The question I would really be interested to get an answer to is whether it is worth bypassing The Large Smoothing Caps with film caps, as was performed in the Dacmagic 2 Modification article linked to in my original post. I am unsure what benefits this offers, and what reason there is for adding a small uf, high quality film cap?
100uf 10v caps - ill have a look at the polypropylene dielectric.... so I gather these are a better option than OS CON type caps? And ill have a look at those Rubycon 100uf you mentioned.
Thanks again for your advice, and patience.
Im slowly, but surely edging away from noobsville.
Thanks again for the info, and yes I did read your original post, As well as half the ruddy internet looking for info
And yes, lifespan is critical, dont want to go through all this work and be back doing the same again next year...Want to be buiding a new DAC
, or doing further mods to this one.Although most of the technical specifiations dont mean that much to me at this point, Going on all the information presented to me, the ZLH's look the best option for Smoothing. There is a Vishay BC capacitor I was considering - farnell item number 1165607, which when reading the spec pdf, quotes near comparable lifespan to the zlh. They are more expensive than the Rubycons...Not sure if i would be scoring a goal with them?
The question I would really be interested to get an answer to is whether it is worth bypassing The Large Smoothing Caps with film caps, as was performed in the Dacmagic 2 Modification article linked to in my original post. I am unsure what benefits this offers, and what reason there is for adding a small uf, high quality film cap?
100uf 10v caps - ill have a look at the polypropylene dielectric.... so I gather these are a better option than OS CON type caps? And ill have a look at those Rubycon 100uf you mentioned.
Thanks again for your advice, and patience.
Im slowly, but surely edging away from noobsville.
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If an acid is present or the soil acidity is very high, lead may disolve into water. Otherwise if it stays in the metalic form it is not very harmful to the environment. However, I suspect that a landfill, filled with decomposition, might allow the disolution of lead. I am not a fan of throwing lead soldered PCB's into the dumpster bin. Any junk PCB's I have laying around that have lots of solder on them usually gets the solder 'recycled' in one of my vero-board projects.
There is a recycle center not far from home that takes the PCB's and electronic garbage....of course after I have scavanged all the components I think might get recycled.Attachments
There is a long article in diyaudio about paralleling electrolytic caps with film caps. There are about 3500 answers, but one thing I picked up is you have to take care you don't make a resonant circuit to cause an oscillation. That amount of calculation involving inductance of a cap is a bit beyond my patience.
One thing recommended for large PA amps is to parallel electrolytic caps on the main supply rails with ceramic caps for better high frequencie response to demand by the output transistors. This involves less calculation because ceramic caps have very low inductance. Ceramic caps are not wound. However, a 4.7 uf 50v Aerovox gold ceramic cap is about $3.
Have never run into OSCOM cap. Vishay caps tend to be expensive because some are made in Europe where workers actually have benefits and a living wage, but I have only bought Vishay Sprague caps that are still made in USA and have no life defined at all. The vishay roederstein film caps I bought were made in the Netherlands. The Rubicons I have received have been made in Japan, which has at least better worker conditions than a country across the sea from them.
Update:
Got the new caps ordered tonight for the DacMagic 1 project. Another full day looking on farnell, only to order from Mouser....lol talk about a wild goose chase
Thanks to you all for the help and advice. Proof is in the pudding...so hopefully some fine dining on its way, thanks to:
2x lm4562na op amps
2x gold plated 8 pin sockets
14x Vishay OS-CON organic polymer capacitors
10x Panasonic FC smoothing caps
20x Nichicon FG/KW/KT caps
I may start a thread to keep track of the project and any changes as they happen.
Thanks again folks
Got the new caps ordered tonight for the DacMagic 1 project. Another full day looking on farnell, only to order from Mouser....lol talk about a wild goose chase
Thanks to you all for the help and advice. Proof is in the pudding...so hopefully some fine dining on its way, thanks to:
2x lm4562na op amps
2x gold plated 8 pin sockets
14x Vishay OS-CON organic polymer capacitors
10x Panasonic FC smoothing caps
20x Nichicon FG/KW/KT caps
I may start a thread to keep track of the project and any changes as they happen.
Thanks again folks
OS-CONs are extremely good in terms of low dissipation factor. Don't use them where they can resonate with wire inductance or cause other circuit problems because of that low dissipation factor (= high Q). Those cases are rare. They filter high frequency junk like crazy, better than almost all standard electrolytics. There are a few specialized electrolytics designed to compete with them that cost a bit less. Illinois Capacitor makes some. The big problem with OS-CONs is that they don't come in higher voltage ranges.
Heat is a big cap killer. You'd be amazed at the reduction in cap life that's caused by heat flow from a hot power resistor, to a cap lead, through a copper trace. It gets coupled right to the center of the cap, which then lives about half as long as other identical caps on the board.
Low voltage electrolytics are also prone to problems. I've seen all manner of failures in 6V and 10V caps. I always replace these with 16V minimum, 20V preferred, if it will fit.
Once you get away from the heat problems, and away from the cheapest of caps, cap life is way longer than most realize. Those published life specs are for maximum temperature and worst case conditions. If we ran our caps that way, we'd have to rebuild our equipment every year! Or even every few months. OTOH, under cool low stress conditions, most decent caps in audio equipment can last many decades. That said, there have also been some pretty lousy caps used in low cost consumer audio equipment.
My thoughts on the matter.
Heat is a big cap killer. You'd be amazed at the reduction in cap life that's caused by heat flow from a hot power resistor, to a cap lead, through a copper trace. It gets coupled right to the center of the cap, which then lives about half as long as other identical caps on the board.
Low voltage electrolytics are also prone to problems. I've seen all manner of failures in 6V and 10V caps. I always replace these with 16V minimum, 20V preferred, if it will fit.
Once you get away from the heat problems, and away from the cheapest of caps, cap life is way longer than most realize. Those published life specs are for maximum temperature and worst case conditions. If we ran our caps that way, we'd have to rebuild our equipment every year! Or even every few months. OTOH, under cool low stress conditions, most decent caps in audio equipment can last many decades. That said, there have also been some pretty lousy caps used in low cost consumer audio equipment.
My thoughts on the matter.
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