I've done some searching but could only find comparisons and recommendations for audiophile-brand and exotic components. There is little in the way of information about "cheapo-phile" parts.
Now before we get into an argument about X better than Y components, I'm also after good performance, just not at any cost. Gainclones are a good example here. They are relatively inexpensive and provide very good performance, often better than more expensive designs.
So, that said, I am interested to hear about your experiences with generic components. Maybe you still get good results using only cheap Panasonic resistors from Digikey. Maybe you found that the $5 Black Gate is better than the $.50 cap but not 10X better. Maybe the $2 mil-spec cap is almost as good as the BG but offers much better price/performance value.
ensen.
Now before we get into an argument about X better than Y components, I'm also after good performance, just not at any cost. Gainclones are a good example here. They are relatively inexpensive and provide very good performance, often better than more expensive designs.
So, that said, I am interested to hear about your experiences with generic components. Maybe you still get good results using only cheap Panasonic resistors from Digikey. Maybe you found that the $5 Black Gate is better than the $.50 cap but not 10X better. Maybe the $2 mil-spec cap is almost as good as the BG but offers much better price/performance value.
ensen.
Beyschlag resistors from Digi-Key supposedly are not bad. If you go a bit higher in price, old style Holcos were not bad either. Michael Percy still stocks them.
For higher wattage, blue Panasonics from Digi-Key are OK. As far as electrolytics go, everybody seems to favour Panasonic FC caps. Next up would probably be Nichicons (especially Muse) and Rubycon Z series, but I didn't see the last ones around here yet.
But to tell the truth, I never bothered that much to test regular parts. If you pay this low, it's not worth the time to test it, I thought
For higher wattage, blue Panasonics from Digi-Key are OK. As far as electrolytics go, everybody seems to favour Panasonic FC caps. Next up would probably be Nichicons (especially Muse) and Rubycon Z series, but I didn't see the last ones around here yet.
But to tell the truth, I never bothered that much to test regular parts. If you pay this low, it's not worth the time to test it, I thought
Peter, I think you are confusing two types of interest, the interest
in reading about and discussing something and the interst in
buying and using something. I would guess that most people
find it more entertaining to read about Ferraris and Lamborghinis
than VWs and Fiats, that does not mean that the majority would
actually consider buying the more exotic cars or even find them
a better choice for themselves.
I think the idea of discussing non-exotic but good components
is excellent, and I think it has been hinted at several times by
experienced designers on the forum that sometimes components
intended for quite different use than audio may be the best
choice for audio. There is a catch, though, with such a discussion.
Most of us are quite limited as to which components we can buy
easily and without too much economic overhead. For instance,
I am fortunate to have an Elfa shop in town, so there are quite
a lot of components I can buy off the shelf. For everything else
I have to use mail order from somewhere, which incurs extra
costs, often minimum orders etc. etc. While Elfa has a decent
selection of op amps, for instance, they have only one brand
of metal film resistors. To buy any other brand, say brand X,
I would have to order from some other company, and if they
don't have any other things I need it may end up quite costly
for a bunch of cheap resistors. In the end, even fairly cheap
non-exotic components may end up costing almost as much
as some of the cheaper exotic ones, and may be even harder
to find, since there is no company specializing in selling
non-exotic but good components for audio. I still think it a
good idea to discuss the non-exotic components, though.
in reading about and discussing something and the interst in
buying and using something. I would guess that most people
find it more entertaining to read about Ferraris and Lamborghinis
than VWs and Fiats, that does not mean that the majority would
actually consider buying the more exotic cars or even find them
a better choice for themselves.
I think the idea of discussing non-exotic but good components
is excellent, and I think it has been hinted at several times by
experienced designers on the forum that sometimes components
intended for quite different use than audio may be the best
choice for audio. There is a catch, though, with such a discussion.
Most of us are quite limited as to which components we can buy
easily and without too much economic overhead. For instance,
I am fortunate to have an Elfa shop in town, so there are quite
a lot of components I can buy off the shelf. For everything else
I have to use mail order from somewhere, which incurs extra
costs, often minimum orders etc. etc. While Elfa has a decent
selection of op amps, for instance, they have only one brand
of metal film resistors. To buy any other brand, say brand X,
I would have to order from some other company, and if they
don't have any other things I need it may end up quite costly
for a bunch of cheap resistors. In the end, even fairly cheap
non-exotic components may end up costing almost as much
as some of the cheaper exotic ones, and may be even harder
to find, since there is no company specializing in selling
non-exotic but good components for audio. I still think it a
good idea to discuss the non-exotic components, though.
Christer said:
I kinda knew about it when I posted, but I wanted to push this thread into a daylight again.
I also agree with you that most of the people who talk in exotic components thread, are the ones who never tried them. This makes the discussion harder, as they mostly there for entertainment purpose.
So far, based on what I can dig up, it seems that there is a consensus that:
1) Carbon resistors are bad and metal film is better.
2) Mica caps are more durable when you can afford them.
Thanks for the suggestions Peter. I will check the Beyschlag. I did some googling and Beyschlag = BC Components = div. of Vishay.
I found the FC caps easily enough. What are the blue Panasonics?
ensen.
PS: I have a couple of reasons for non-exotic vs. joining the exotic thread. I choose not to afford them so I have to figure out how to make do with the cheaper components. And, by starting a thread I'm hoping to make it an easy search for the next forum newbie.
1) Carbon resistors are bad and metal film is better.
2) Mica caps are more durable when you can afford them.
Thanks for the suggestions Peter. I will check the Beyschlag. I did some googling and Beyschlag = BC Components = div. of Vishay.
I found the FC caps easily enough. What are the blue Panasonics?
ensen.PS: I have a couple of reasons for non-exotic vs. joining the exotic thread. I choose not to afford them so I have to figure out how to make do with the cheaper components. And, by starting a thread I'm hoping to make it an easy search for the next forum newbie.
Peter, I will concede that you are right about the exotics thread being more popular. Whether everyone is actually acquiring them is another question. Christer's point about entertainment is valid here. For me, unobtanium is still unobtainium regardless of hobby so instead, I attempt the pragmatic.
My view is that quite a few people will build circuits with whatever parts are available, then start swapping out components to see if there is a difference. I think they forget to predict that starting with the lowest performance components will only make the changes more extreme. Upgrading from Kia to Porsche.
As an aside, it bowls me over others are actually surprised to find a difference comparing exotics to generic. When the time comes for my own tweaks, I hope to be pleasantly surprised to find no difference, but I doubt it.
So my goal remains this: Start out with good components that are inexpensive, thus getting something that performs well to begin with. If I do this right, any tweaking after that should produce more subtle improvements. Upgrading form Acura to Porsche.
ensen.
My view is that quite a few people will build circuits with whatever parts are available, then start swapping out components to see if there is a difference. I think they forget to predict that starting with the lowest performance components will only make the changes more extreme. Upgrading from Kia to Porsche.
As an aside, it bowls me over others are actually surprised to find a difference comparing exotics to generic. When the time comes for my own tweaks, I hope to be pleasantly surprised to find no difference, but I doubt it.
So my goal remains this: Start out with good components that are inexpensive, thus getting something that performs well to begin with. If I do this right, any tweaking after that should produce more subtle improvements. Upgrading form Acura to Porsche.
ensen.
I think, everything that is controversial draws people. That's our nature
The blue Panasonic resistor are higher wattage ones (1, 2 and 3W) and can be used in Alephs, for instance, as source resistors.
I was also hoping once, that I won't find the difference, but unfortunately it wasn't the case.
Still, I'm not so sure if success cannot be achieved with regular components. If it is true that Gain Card is built with non audiophile parts, this is the best example (although chassis is pretty exotic).
I've built few different GC amps and some of them simply sucked, only because the case was built in a different way (while other parts stayed the same).
So if you don't want to spend on expensive parts, you might concentrate your efforts on different aspects of your design, which are as well important.
The blue Panasonic resistor are higher wattage ones (1, 2 and 3W) and can be used in Alephs, for instance, as source resistors.
I was also hoping once, that I won't find the difference, but unfortunately it wasn't the case.
Still, I'm not so sure if success cannot be achieved with regular components. If it is true that Gain Card is built with non audiophile parts, this is the best example (although chassis is pretty exotic).
I've built few different GC amps and some of them simply sucked, only because the case was built in a different way (while other parts stayed the same).
So if you don't want to spend on expensive parts, you might concentrate your efforts on different aspects of your design, which are as well important.
Peter Daniel said:
One thing I always wonder about when people report audible
differences is if the experiment is done s.t. it is reasonable
to attribute this difference to the claimed reason. For instance,
if you build two gainclones, A and B, with different cases, and
A sounds good and B bad, did you try to swap the electronics
between the cases? Even if you built two identical gaincloines
electrically, there might be individual variations in components,
the chips themselves for instance, that cause the difference,
not actually the cases. It is the same thing if one builds two
identical amplifiers but use a different capacitor in one of them.
Unless, they were truly identical from the start and verified to
sound indistinguishable, how do we know an audiable difference
actually is because of this particular capacitor that differs?
Pleas note, I am not arguing against audibilty of components
or cases. However, for repots on audible difference to serve
other people any good, it is important to ascertain that the
cause can reasonably be attributed to what one claims. I often
fail to see any evidence of that when people report their
experiences with "exotic" components.
First of all, this is not a claim and not a valid scientifical experiment. It is just an observation that one diy-er passes to the other. It's up to individual to do whatever he wants with that info.
I am not eager enough to perform controlled tests with different chassis materials, as I still don't have enough time (and reason) for that.
It just happens that when I built something, I also listen to that (with few of my friends) and we draw our conclusions accordingly. That's about all.
I am not eager enough to perform controlled tests with different chassis materials, as I still don't have enough time (and reason) for that.
It just happens that when I built something, I also listen to that (with few of my friends) and we draw our conclusions accordingly. That's about all.
Christer said:
If you are using the same parts to make the same GCs, consistency is pretty good and I didn't notice variation in sound.
But if I use the same parts, but totally different cofiguration of mechanical design and different materials, the sound can differ in a large extend.
I just played yesterday with my new monoblock GC and I was tweaking few things. I used 1/2" brass bar as rear footing (one cone in front) and by just placing neoprene pads under the brass bar, I could greatly influence the tonality of trebles. Without pads the sound was more bright and there was more air to it, while with the pads it became more toned down, kinda laid back. Initially I thought that this is better, but later I played more aggressive music (Clash Tribute - Burning London) and it simply was unlistenable. I removed the pads and the sound became much more natural and coherent.
purplepeople said:
Hi mate, I started off with the same idea as you, use good quality standard components, rather than boutique ranges.
If you can't get the Panasonics, I would recomend both the Rubicon ZA and ZL range of electros, and also I tend to stick with Evox-Rifa and Wima caps, of various types. Resistors are all standard metal film 1% types.
Once I get settled in to the new home I will be trying various upgrades, perhaps even some BGs, but it may not be for a while as I am once again becoming a poor student!
Anyother way to get the last drop of very cd out is to have a good filing system to associate all info needed to play that cd. Stick the info on the jewel case to remind you when playing the cd, use maple wooden case, and cast iron spikes 4 corners; for another cd use green LED three wooden spikes one front two back etc etc....
Chris
Chris
The only reliable trial and error method I know is to change only one thing at a time.
I'm planning to test a number of opamps by swapping them in and out of a simple buffer circuit built with a dip socket. Yes... I know, solder is better than spring-loaded but at least only one thing changes - not caps, or anything else.
If I want to see how a resistor affects it, then I change only one resistor. If I want to see the effect of a different chassis design, then I only change the shape of the box. To check the effect of different materials, I won't change the shape of the chassis. For RFI, add shielding, but don't change the case or the power supply. Etc., etc., etc....
Of course, changing only one thing at a time is never practical. It is very slow, but offers the best chance of detecting a change and isolating a cause. I also expect that keeping the environment constant will be difficult. Power from the wall changes with usage in the neighbourhood. Sounds from cars on the street can disrupt the sounds or mask them completely. But both of these can still be minimized by testing early in the morning about 2 hours after the local night clubs close (to minimize all the surges from people first arriving home). This is how I came to determine that SACD is smoother than CD, by comparing in the middle of the night. The difference is so subtle that I can only notice it with no other noises around.
After trying out the opamps, I will move to the passives and try both small and large upgrades. Maybe the BGs will still reign. Maybe not. We'll see....
ensen.
I'm planning to test a number of opamps by swapping them in and out of a simple buffer circuit built with a dip socket. Yes... I know, solder is better than spring-loaded but at least only one thing changes - not caps, or anything else.
If I want to see how a resistor affects it, then I change only one resistor. If I want to see the effect of a different chassis design, then I only change the shape of the box. To check the effect of different materials, I won't change the shape of the chassis. For RFI, add shielding, but don't change the case or the power supply. Etc., etc., etc....
Of course, changing only one thing at a time is never practical. It is very slow, but offers the best chance of detecting a change and isolating a cause. I also expect that keeping the environment constant will be difficult. Power from the wall changes with usage in the neighbourhood. Sounds from cars on the street can disrupt the sounds or mask them completely. But both of these can still be minimized by testing early in the morning about 2 hours after the local night clubs close (to minimize all the surges from people first arriving home). This is how I came to determine that SACD is smoother than CD, by comparing in the middle of the night. The difference is so subtle that I can only notice it with no other noises around.
After trying out the opamps, I will move to the passives and try both small and large upgrades. Maybe the BGs will still reign. Maybe not. We'll see....
ensen.
I believe that Nelson Pass uses Dale metal film resistors in his production amps.
A review by Stereophile of the Lamm M2.1
mentions the "finest parts" in the $16,000/pr. amps
These are: Dale metal film resistors, PRC wire wound resistors,
Electrocube and Roederstein film capacitors,
"high frequency switching grade Cornell Dubilier capacitors"
I think we can learn from these people about best bang for the buck and/or just best components
A review by Stereophile of the Lamm M2.1
mentions the "finest parts" in the $16,000/pr. amps
These are: Dale metal film resistors, PRC wire wound resistors,
Electrocube and Roederstein film capacitors,
"high frequency switching grade Cornell Dubilier capacitors"
I think we can learn from these people about best bang for the buck and/or just best components
Peter Daniel said:
Allen Wright uses these in his stuff... which i'd slot in as high end kit.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
Someone posted:
"1) Carbon resistors are bad and metal film is better.
2) Mica caps are more durable when you can afford them."
as an example of exotic components.
I'm not sure I consider these exotic as I just try to buy what I can find in digikey so I can minimize the number of different shipping and handling carges. Unless it is unavailible from digikey, I usually don't look elsewhere. When you start totaling up the costs, the board level components even when "exotic" don't add up to that much in relation to the enclosure, heatsinks, transformer, and PS caps. Even the binding posts, gold plated connectors and power entry components are surprisingly expensive comparred to to what's on the PCB. The only exception might be if you have a lot of parrellel L-MOSFETs.
Consequently, I don't think of buying a couple of silver mica caps and using 1% resistors as exotic or extravagant. Cost-wise they ar4e peanuts! If Digikey carried BG caps, I would probaly go for the at least the standard ones without thinking it was anything special.
On the otherhand, if we are taking $20/each for 47uF rail decoupling caps and $1/each for resistors that might seem a little silly.
"1) Carbon resistors are bad and metal film is better.
2) Mica caps are more durable when you can afford them."
as an example of exotic components.
I'm not sure I consider these exotic as I just try to buy what I can find in digikey so I can minimize the number of different shipping and handling carges. Unless it is unavailible from digikey, I usually don't look elsewhere. When you start totaling up the costs, the board level components even when "exotic" don't add up to that much in relation to the enclosure, heatsinks, transformer, and PS caps. Even the binding posts, gold plated connectors and power entry components are surprisingly expensive comparred to to what's on the PCB. The only exception might be if you have a lot of parrellel L-MOSFETs.
Consequently, I don't think of buying a couple of silver mica caps and using 1% resistors as exotic or extravagant. Cost-wise they ar4e peanuts! If Digikey carried BG caps, I would probaly go for the at least the standard ones without thinking it was anything special.
On the otherhand, if we are taking $20/each for 47uF rail decoupling caps and $1/each for resistors that might seem a little silly.
For me, a part qualifies as exotic if:
1) It has a brand name surrounded with a reputation (deserved or no)
2) Costs 5X generic equivalent
These apply to all types of components from resistors to transformers and even with relays and diodes. Thus Black Gate would qualify since Panasonic or Vishay is considered to be generic.
ICs normally do not qualify since they usually only come from one mfg and are pretty cheap compared to discrete equivalents.
I'm looking to find the good generics and weed out the poor exotics.
ensen.
1) It has a brand name surrounded with a reputation (deserved or no)
2) Costs 5X generic equivalent
These apply to all types of components from resistors to transformers and even with relays and diodes. Thus Black Gate would qualify since Panasonic or Vishay is considered to be generic.
ICs normally do not qualify since they usually only come from one mfg and are pretty cheap compared to discrete equivalents.
I'm looking to find the good generics and weed out the poor exotics.
ensen.- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.