ELNA for Audio real or fake

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Hi ,
Recently I purchased on ebay (from Chinese seller) 2 Elnas for audio15000uF/63v.
They look quite suspicious to me, so I am not sure if they are genuine elnas.
They have black plastic top with sealed number 4625T. They do not have any coding on the sides like most of caps.
Can anyone assess if they are real or fake?
Thanks for help.
elna for audio1.JPG

elna for audio 2.JPG
 
Hi,

Well.... I recently purchased a very versatile LCRZ meter which allows me to measure from 40Hz to 200 Khz all wanted cap properties, and I am currently doing a very large aged cap survey, including also some new Elna power supply caps. I bought some genuine Elna Tonerex 63V 6800uF from germany and some doubtfull ones from china, labelled Elna Tonerex Kenwood 73V 8200uF. The latter are much slimmer, which is odd for a higher voltage and higher capacity. Secondly the tan delta (DF) and ESR are really collapsing after 5kHz, as where the genuine one goes on much longer (though not eternal). I intend to finish the measurements soon and to put it up here.

So I expect the slimmer one from HK to be relabelled fake ones, but I have to admit that the plastic sleeve and printing is almost identical to the genuine, including the aluminium top with typical Elna sword-shaped rupture path.

In your case, there are 2 things to check first: what is the manufacturing date? There should be some small printing like 0420 (meaning 2004, week 20). Depending on the date, we have to look up the Elna datasheets of that year, to see if the dimensions fit the Elna datasheet (first indication). I have seen genuine Elna's with plastic top cap before. Elna makes a lot of custom series for HiFi OEM clients, since they want certain looks, dimensions and voltages, and eventually some surplus is dumped in the market. My 'Kenwood' might be genuine, despite the odd size, odd voltage rating, and poor measurements (but I think it's crap).

You could send your caps to me if you like (I'll send them back :) )

EDIT: the 'for Audio' series are actually older series, it migth very well be over 10 years old, going from stock to stock, as the wear signs show. Also, to complete the story, Elna had (has?) factories in China (like any other cap manufacturer) and many HiFi manufacturers have assembly lines in China. Hence, there are lots of surplus genuine parts out there. Unfortunately, also quite some counterfeit ones.

cheers,
oscar
 
Last edited:
Thanks Oscar,
I just looked at the caps again and definitely there is no any sort of coding or numbering except 4625t on the plastic cap.
Thanks for proposition of checking their electric specs but I afraid it is not worth of both ways postal cost. I will check at the post office tomorrow.
Anyway I already purchased 100% sure Elnas from Diyaudio member Pocoyo. If you are interested in such cups he has some more. See his thread.
Best regards
Bartek
 
Thanks for the mentioning Pocoyo, I got in touch with him today.

The Elna's he (and several Ebay sellers) are offering is again a different series.

Surprisingly, the 12000uF can has the same dimensions as my Tonerex 6800 uF (63V) can, probably the difference between the LAO and LPO series. meaning that my 6800 uF version has probably better characteristics: something I want to test.

I hope I could test your Elna's, because I would like to publish here some Elna comparison test results. I think I will buy some more from China / HK, specially the ones labelled 'Denon', 'Marantz', etc, plus some strange can sizes claimed to be 'Tonerex', probably some fakes ones are amongst them. You could call it a waste of money, but I would like to obtain and present some clarity to the audio community (and myself). Even if they are genuine, it will be nice to know their properties.

PS: Elna has been very reluctant to print manufacturing dates on their caps, I think it's only after 2000 or so they started to do that, probably linked to the requirements stipulated by reference IEC standards and QA/QC certification requirements. The number you provided is rather a manufacturing batch number, for which inside information is required (and Elna really is a closed company, publishing hardly any information).

cheers
 
Last edited:
This is actually becoming a huge problem. At work we discovered some fake electrolytics b/c a power supply didn't deliver to specs. We eventually troubleshooted it down to the 'lytics and tested them with the HP4194 analyzer. They had about half the rated capacitance, and when compared to a known good real cap, we noticed a slight different font on the labelings. I can't remember which supplier we got them from, but they quickly threw out the remaining stock when we informed them. Turns out fake parts is a growing problem. My guess is the 'hotter' a component is, the more likely some fake clones are circulating the market.
 
Hi Semperfi, that's interesting; do you have any one of them left?

I've been digging deeper into the datasheets and I'm pretty sure one of my Elna's labelled "Tonerex / Kenwood / 73 V / 8200 uF(M) / Elna / CE 85 C" is probably fake, because:

- 73V does not exist across the LAO/LPO/Tonerex series (71V does)
- the can size (30 x 50) does not exist in that capacity range (it should be 35 x 50 for @ 71 V)
- the manufacturing country is missing; the data sheets and my genuine Elna have Thailand or Japan printed on them
- the font type for the word 'Tonerex' is different
- the snap-in terminals are longer
- the sword-shaped vent rupture groove is not across the whole diameter, actually not even nicely in the middle
- the sword-shaped vent rupture lines seem 'stamped' afterwards (deformed surface inwards), as where the genuine cap is really deep square groove
- and finally, the the ESR is double/tripple while the DF (tan d) is going to infinity around 5 kHz (don't want that in your amp....)

So bartmallow, what are the dimensions of your caps? They seem pretty slim to me for that capacity / rated voltage, and there is also no country printed on them.

And more sorry for this: 15000uF @ 63V does not exist in the Elna LAO / LPO datasheets. 42 volt is last one for that capacity, sized 35 x 50 H.

cheers,
Oscar

EDIT: I will get some pictures up when I get back home this weekend.
 
Last edited:
I just pulled some Elnas out of an old Kenwood amp and would like to reuse them.

I read that If they were custom caps for a manufacturer like kenwood they sometimes missed some lettering. Does anyone know what the 64F23 means?

My question is: which connection is positive, is it the one with the black dot?

I also found a Elna data sheet PDF

http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/p...alog_07_08.pdf
 

Attachments

  • Elna cap btm.jpg
    Elna cap btm.jpg
    111.3 KB · Views: 2,524
  • Elna cap side.jpg
    Elna cap side.jpg
    94.3 KB · Views: 2,533
Last edited:
I just pulled some Elnas out of an old Kenwood amp and would like to reuse them.

I read that If they were custom caps for a manufacturer like kenwood they sometimes missed some lettering. Does anyone know what the 64F23 means?

My question is: which connection is positive, is it the one with the black dot?

I also found a Elna data sheet PDF

http://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/p...alog_07_08.pdf

It states right on the cap in your second pic the black is negative.
 
Hi,

Your pictures are not clear, but I'm 99% sure these are the same Fake I purchased on the chinese eBay (I live in China) for 40 cents a piece (although mine are Nippon ChemiCon hahaha !)
You can tell by looking at the (-) minus band where you can see the "matrix" from the printer.... (however mine did not have a serial number on top)

When I complained , the guy said "No they are not fake, I promised, they are authentically genuinee...." then "OK.. maybe they are relabeled Elna, but only the sleeve has changed, these are brand capacitors"".. finally after I insisted a bit more, he said.. "hey! for that price what did you expect?????"



I guess he was right... :p



In the end they work.. probably not super low ESR, but they filter 50Hz ....
 
Your pictures are not clear, but I'm 99% sure these are the same Fake I purchased on the chinese eBay

Then Kenwood was buying fake caps 15 years ago. I doubt it.

cbdb, if that Kenwood amp is 15+ years in age I would be very reluctant in reusing those caps

Why? I was using them, the tranny and the bridge to give me some power to start playing around. I will probably start with testing the power supply, including the caps.
 
I was replying to bartmalow (remember... that's his thread....) ;)

Thanks Lazybutt,
I paid unfortunately a little bit more for my set (around €14).
Fortunately I have already allocation for those caps
I bought some opamps from the same guy, also very cheap .
i.e: I paid €4 for a set of 2 OPA627AU where on farnell or mouser they cost minimum €15 for one . I presume they are also fake however they sound quite good to me, but not as good as I expected from these opamps. Does any one know where I can get opa627 cheaper than in farnell but still original?
 
A bit later then promissed, but hereby some pics to show how you can indentify a (probably) fake Elna. The one the left is a genuine Elna LPO Tonerex.

As I said earlier, the following observations can be made:

- 73V does not exist across the LAO/LPO/Tonerex series (71V does)
- the gold printing is much lighter (higher bling-bling factor)
- the character spacing between is much less
- the can size (30 x 50) does not exist in that capacity range (it should be 35 x 50 for @ 71 V)
- the manufacturing country is missing; the data sheets and my genuine Elna have Thailand or Japan printed on them
- the font type for the word 'Tonerex' is different (other series with 'For Audio' should have same font as the tonerex on the left here)
- the snap-in terminals are longer
- the sword-shaped vent rupture groove is not across the whole diameter, actually not even nicely in the middle
- the sword-shaped vent rupture lines seem 'stamped' afterwards (deformed surface inwards), as where the genuine cap is really deep square groove

On ebay, the first thing to check is the can size: Elna has mostly unique can sizes for given capacity/voltage. There are many close lookalikes which have dimensions that do not exist in the Elna datasheets.

PS; the fake 'Kenwood' model below is still on sale with HK ebayer, and there are several other 'Denon' and 'Marantz' ones, in fancy blue colors.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
Last edited:
Hi, could you tell what meter did you buy and how much did it cost? I would love to own one of those...

Regards,

Legis

I bought this one, which pleases me a lot to work with. And the seller is to be recommended; there were some issues with the stability due to rough shipment, and he provided full support and replacement, very good folks to deal with. Beside the wide frequency range, you can also put up to 35V DC bias (external), which can make quite a difference for caps at work (even essential for tantalum caps, which don't like the minust reverese voltage). Of course this unit is not an Hewlett Packard or the like; but I don't have the budget for those. After searching for months, this was the only one I found providing large frequency span within my budget.

I will put some test results up tonight of the caps above.
 
Last edited:
A word of caution on capacitor size, however... Elna and others also produce OEM type capacitors, with Kenwood, Sony, etc, own specifications, so there could be some OEM capacitors not exactly the same size as standard ones.
Also, the gold exact color can vary from batch to batch...

But it's true that with 30% less volume for the same energy storage capacity, is very suspicious, and there are so many "For Audio" out there that most must be fake

To conclude, what do you think of these...? they have the longer snap in pins are you pointed out, the flashy blue color, but they have the "Thailand" marking, and are sold from a reputable seller..... :scratch:
 

Attachments

  • Elna.jpg
    Elna.jpg
    27.8 KB · Views: 1,570
To conclude, what do you think of these...? they have the longer snap in pins are you pointed out, the flashy blue color, but they have the "Thailand" marking, and are sold from a reputable seller..... :scratch:

Thanks for putting those pics up, the labelling looks good.

Well, have look at the datasheets (download from here, too large to attach). 50V-15000uF exist (type I only though), but are they 35 x 50 (diameter x height) sized? This is what I meant, it's easy to put a fake sheet around another cap which looks very much like an Elna, but it is hard to find Elna can dimensions if you want to fake one....

In the end, to be sure, you have to measure their properties. Will come back later on that.

But I agree that it is likely that Elna makes OEM caps, but why with different can size? At least your printing looks reasonable genuine (verify with data sheets), but mine is obviously off spec....

PS: and if I was in the counterfeit business, I would also print Denon, Marantz etc on it... I have seen your blue babies with 'Denon' printed on them, which is something else as 'Thailand'

EDIT: how does the top of yours look like (is the rupture groove across the whole diameter?).
 
Last edited:
Hereby the test results. I leave it in the middle if the 'Kenwood' is a fake or genuine, but as the results show: the 'Kenwood' has much less performance and some odd behaviour I would not like to find in one of my amps.

Now, with a lot of caution before I get shot here.... normally (when measuring small caps), the properties (ESR, phase, DF) get better with increasing rated working voltage, while these results show the opposite. Then again, this may also be due to the fact of different foil inside the capacitors. The genuine LPO has almost 50% extra can volume at lower rated working voltage, hence thicker foil. So by definition it's comparing two different caps....

I would also like to demonstrate that ESR meters with single or double test frequencies (mostly at 100 Hz and/or 1 khz) are not a really useful, most caps (incl. fake caps) will test well as the graphs show, but not the cap behaviour over the audio frequency spectrum.

First capacity from 40 Hz to 40 kHz, the 'resonating peak' is where impedance and ESR become equal (as shown further down), and where the phase shift between current and voltage becomes 0 degrees (as shown further down).

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Followed by ESR and |Z|; The genuine Elna LPO has a nice flat ESR of 10 mOhm (which is VERY good; many VERY expensive caps score worse!), while the 'kenwood' cap has double ESR of around 20 mOhm (while 'normally' higher working voltage and capacity results in lower ESR at low frequencies, so I consider the 'kenwood' cap at least 4 times worse).

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Followed by phase shift; in case of coupling caps this would mean very non-linear behaviour, but this is much less an issue for power supply buffer caps which act primairily as a current source (though I still have to research that statement made by a knowledgeable friend, so don't shoot me). When crossing 0 degrees, the cap becomes in theory an inductor. IMO, that must have an impact on the amp performance.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Finalised by the dissipation factors (tan delta) which is the result of the performances here-above.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.