Capasitors and resistors, how important are they really, the quality that is?
The way some of these components are priced you'd think they were made of gold.
Why not just go with the plain 1% metal film resistor, whats so special about shinko's tantalum resistors?
And what's wrong with a $1-2 MKP metallized polypropylene? Why pay +$60 for a tiny little cap?
When do you actually need these awsome supercomponents?
When they are in the direct signal path? Is there a difference between what component you use depending on if its in series or shunted?
We've all heard the claims but what's actually tru when it comes to these things?
The way some of these components are priced you'd think they were made of gold.
Why not just go with the plain 1% metal film resistor, whats so special about shinko's tantalum resistors?
And what's wrong with a $1-2 MKP metallized polypropylene? Why pay +$60 for a tiny little cap?
When do you actually need these awsome supercomponents?
When they are in the direct signal path? Is there a difference between what component you use depending on if its in series or shunted?
We've all heard the claims but what's actually tru when it comes to these things?
There's been a lot of discussion on this topic, to say the least.
On one hand, modern electronic design has forced distortion down so low that the passive components themselves begin to contribute a significant amount of nonlinearity in whatever's left. Older equipment typically used cheaper components with lower quality, but premium components won't improve a mediocre design very much if at all.
On the other hand, not a little of the 'boutique' components are outrageously priced for the diminishing returns they can provide. How deep are your pockets?
My pockets are very shallow, so I have chose carefully. I do think there are better quality metal film--especially metal foil--resistors that don't cost too much. I put those into the input and feedback stages of amplifiers and use more generic metal films elsewhere when restoring an older amplifier that used carbon resistors, for example. And I used Black Gate electrolytics where I could afford them; I guess I will have to use Nichicon or similar from now on.
Silver foil/Teflon caps? Not me; I have to go with generic metalized polypropylene in speaker crossovers; like I say, you get into diminishing returns very quickly and the difference in the premium parts may be discernible in only the very best systems. Frankly, components are sometimes chosen for a particular "sound" that I suspect is just euphonious distortion; this is why oil/paper and carbon composition resistor remain popular in some circles.
Much of the fun for me has been studying the available technology and learning what to select, and what to search for on Ebay and elsewhere. In the end, you have to learn what's "good enough" and when to apply the gold-plated stuff, and that's a topic for much discussion and disagreement.
On one hand, modern electronic design has forced distortion down so low that the passive components themselves begin to contribute a significant amount of nonlinearity in whatever's left. Older equipment typically used cheaper components with lower quality, but premium components won't improve a mediocre design very much if at all.
On the other hand, not a little of the 'boutique' components are outrageously priced for the diminishing returns they can provide. How deep are your pockets?
My pockets are very shallow, so I have chose carefully. I do think there are better quality metal film--especially metal foil--resistors that don't cost too much. I put those into the input and feedback stages of amplifiers and use more generic metal films elsewhere when restoring an older amplifier that used carbon resistors, for example. And I used Black Gate electrolytics where I could afford them; I guess I will have to use Nichicon or similar from now on.
Silver foil/Teflon caps? Not me; I have to go with generic metalized polypropylene in speaker crossovers; like I say, you get into diminishing returns very quickly and the difference in the premium parts may be discernible in only the very best systems. Frankly, components are sometimes chosen for a particular "sound" that I suspect is just euphonious distortion; this is why oil/paper and carbon composition resistor remain popular in some circles.
Much of the fun for me has been studying the available technology and learning what to select, and what to search for on Ebay and elsewhere. In the end, you have to learn what's "good enough" and when to apply the gold-plated stuff, and that's a topic for much discussion and disagreement.
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I don't mind spending money on parts that improve the sound but I don't like spending money on hype.
But money aside, is there really any difference between good quality components and these super deluxe variants?
Is there really any audiable difference between let's say a Mcap Rtx vs a Mundorf Zn or even a silver/gold? Why not go with a Solen PPE cap?
Somewhere there must be a line where you can't hear a difference?
It's like the cable discussion. Some people claim to hear differences but no-one seams to be able to prove it in a double-blind test?
But money aside, is there really any difference between good quality components and these super deluxe variants?
Is there really any audiable difference between let's say a Mcap Rtx vs a Mundorf Zn or even a silver/gold? Why not go with a Solen PPE cap?
Somewhere there must be a line where you can't hear a difference?
It's like the cable discussion. Some people claim to hear differences but no-one seams to be able to prove it in a double-blind test?
If you take a closer look at especially caps, you'll find that the build quality of the boutique caps, aimed for the audio market, are usually pretty low quality. They sell on buzzwords like "silver", "gold", "audio", "non-magnetic", and so forth.
The above mentioned buzzwords, are somewhat hard to find in the industrial sector, as they have to sell their caps on actual quality, and price/quality/performance.
A good example is the electrolytic caps, where you can see brands like black gate and the like. People pay through their nose for especially black gate caps, but since the production ceased quite a few years ago, what they actually get, is an old, semi-dried out cap, with a fancy label.
Now who in their right mind, would build anything, of sub-standard components, like old electrolytic caps?
Not me for sure, and in particular not when you can get premium quality caps, for a fraction of the cost......if you can live without the fancy labels, and the lack of audiophile marketing that is
A good example of what I'm trying to say, you can see here:
I bought a few Vishay PP film caps, without housing
diyAudio
And made a nice hard and dead housing to cast them into, using a type of compound also picked from the industrial segment.
diyAudio
Result: A cap that does not suffer from microphonics, and can take a lot of abuse, due to the thermal transfer of the compound.
All at a reasonable cost.
Magura
The above mentioned buzzwords, are somewhat hard to find in the industrial sector, as they have to sell their caps on actual quality, and price/quality/performance.
A good example is the electrolytic caps, where you can see brands like black gate and the like. People pay through their nose for especially black gate caps, but since the production ceased quite a few years ago, what they actually get, is an old, semi-dried out cap, with a fancy label.
Now who in their right mind, would build anything, of sub-standard components, like old electrolytic caps?
Not me for sure, and in particular not when you can get premium quality caps, for a fraction of the cost......if you can live without the fancy labels, and the lack of audiophile marketing that is
A good example of what I'm trying to say, you can see here:
I bought a few Vishay PP film caps, without housing
diyAudio
And made a nice hard and dead housing to cast them into, using a type of compound also picked from the industrial segment.
diyAudio
Result: A cap that does not suffer from microphonics, and can take a lot of abuse, due to the thermal transfer of the compound.
All at a reasonable cost.
Magura
I think you have partly answered your own question
Can you tell a difference ? particularly if someone else swaps the part for you so you don't know which is which.
IMO much of this comes down to "belief" and "expectation"
Just remember this... "everybody is after your money"
Depends on where you use them. If you have them in some high feedback amplifier with low efficiency loudspeakers I doubt you'll hear anything. But if you have them in some single ended amplifier with say 2 simple gain stages chances are much bigger of there being an audible difference. I my subjective opinion.
It's not much of a step up in price to go to foil instead of metallized. For a high current application like a crossover, you may find that to be worthwhile. I would avoid any foil cap that is sold by an "audiophile" company- industrial caps, wound in large quantities on modern machinery are much less likely to have a "sound."
Ok, tinfoil beats metallized pp. Check...
At least that's something tangible. Going for foil cap's in the mos critical places probably won't break the bank.
I'll never claim to have "golden ears" although I do enjoy music when it's playing from a really good hifi-system.
Sure I can hear differences but I feel even double blind tests comparing amplifiers can be difficult. It's hard to be true every time and it's hard to quantify feelings. (How you percieve music)
My immediate concern is building an in-line bsc integrated with my interconnects.
Yes... cables with a small "filter". The caps are going to be small 0.1, 0.15 or 0.22uF. (I'm not a 100% sure on the value yet, it depends on what resistors I choose as well.
Later on it becomes more serious when I start building a preamp but the cables are my first priority.
I couldn't find any suitable "industrial" axial tin foil caps with my regular suppliers. I guess it'll have to be "audiofile" components.
Multicap RTX and Mundof ZN seam to be roughly in the same price range. Expensive but not totally outrageous.
What do you think? Good choices, not enough esoteria or already too much?
If you have some better choices I'm all ears.
As for the resistors...
Vishay are kind of pricey, even the regular VTA series.
Audio note tantalum are almost half the cost, a good sign in my book.
Shinkoh tantalum are even better priced although still expensive?
I don't know who are supposed to be the best but I recognize the Shinkoh name and I could live with the price as long it's small quantities.
What do you think? A fair choice? Am I beeing a tool?
At least that's something tangible. Going for foil cap's in the mos critical places probably won't break the bank.
I'll never claim to have "golden ears" although I do enjoy music when it's playing from a really good hifi-system.
Sure I can hear differences but I feel even double blind tests comparing amplifiers can be difficult. It's hard to be true every time and it's hard to quantify feelings. (How you percieve music)
My immediate concern is building an in-line bsc integrated with my interconnects.
Yes... cables with a small "filter". The caps are going to be small 0.1, 0.15 or 0.22uF. (I'm not a 100% sure on the value yet, it depends on what resistors I choose as well.
Later on it becomes more serious when I start building a preamp but the cables are my first priority.
I couldn't find any suitable "industrial" axial tin foil caps with my regular suppliers. I guess it'll have to be "audiofile" components.
Multicap RTX and Mundof ZN seam to be roughly in the same price range. Expensive but not totally outrageous.
What do you think? Good choices, not enough esoteria or already too much?
If you have some better choices I'm all ears.
As for the resistors...
Vishay are kind of pricey, even the regular VTA series.
Audio note tantalum are almost half the cost, a good sign in my book.
Shinkoh tantalum are even better priced although still expensive?
I don't know who are supposed to be the best but I recognize the Shinkoh name and I could live with the price as long it's small quantities.
What do you think? A fair choice? Am I beeing a tool?
My opinion on resistors is that Vishay's bulk metal foils, within their power and voltage ratings, are the best. Period. I know how they're built and why they're better because Vishay documents the benefits with numbers, and they're a clear cut above metal films. Possibly you can even hear the difference.
I have yet to find >any< specifications for tantalum resistors; I assume they're made like metal films and probably they're decent quality. They have a good reputation and have been around for some years; bulk metal foil resistors are relatively new to the audio market and are still being 'discovered' even though the technology has been around since the 60's. The tantalums look identical to metal film resistors while the metal foil types are built very differently, for a good reason. So they're not quite as easy to use, as well as being rather expensive, especially for the newest Z-foil types.
There's still a need for a good 'generic' metal film for general use and there are some good and relatively inexpensive types on the market; I consider 1% 100ppm parts to be the minimum I'd want to use in audio circuits and .1% 25ppm to be 'better'. Metal foil can be routinely had to .01% (or even .001%) and well under 5ppm (down to .5ppm). Carbon resistors go in exactly the opposite direction, in every way, and I wouldn't use them in audio circuits at all, but some people like the apparently mellow sound they can impart due to their well-documented non-linearities.
Let your budget be your guide. Most resistors aren't really 'boutique' parts (I know of a couple of exceptions, which I don't consider good quality parts), so the engineering is solid and the hype is minimal.
As for cables, well...that part of the market is clearly out of control. My worst excess in that area was to use Kimber 4TC for my speakers and roll some of my own interconnect from surplus teflon insulated silver plated wire with decent quality gold plated RCA connectors, and called it good without having spent many hundreds--or thousands!--of dollars on esoterica.
In general, my guide for selecting and using parts is based mostly on objective engineering practice with an excursion or two, heavily ruled by my limited budget. I don't take as many chances on perceived sound quality as other DIYers may do because I'm more engineering oriented to begin with (I used to be an electronics technician).
I have yet to find >any< specifications for tantalum resistors; I assume they're made like metal films and probably they're decent quality. They have a good reputation and have been around for some years; bulk metal foil resistors are relatively new to the audio market and are still being 'discovered' even though the technology has been around since the 60's. The tantalums look identical to metal film resistors while the metal foil types are built very differently, for a good reason. So they're not quite as easy to use, as well as being rather expensive, especially for the newest Z-foil types.
There's still a need for a good 'generic' metal film for general use and there are some good and relatively inexpensive types on the market; I consider 1% 100ppm parts to be the minimum I'd want to use in audio circuits and .1% 25ppm to be 'better'. Metal foil can be routinely had to .01% (or even .001%) and well under 5ppm (down to .5ppm). Carbon resistors go in exactly the opposite direction, in every way, and I wouldn't use them in audio circuits at all, but some people like the apparently mellow sound they can impart due to their well-documented non-linearities.
Let your budget be your guide. Most resistors aren't really 'boutique' parts (I know of a couple of exceptions, which I don't consider good quality parts), so the engineering is solid and the hype is minimal.
As for cables, well...that part of the market is clearly out of control. My worst excess in that area was to use Kimber 4TC for my speakers and roll some of my own interconnect from surplus teflon insulated silver plated wire with decent quality gold plated RCA connectors, and called it good without having spent many hundreds--or thousands!--of dollars on esoterica.
In general, my guide for selecting and using parts is based mostly on objective engineering practice with an excursion or two, heavily ruled by my limited budget. I don't take as many chances on perceived sound quality as other DIYers may do because I'm more engineering oriented to begin with (I used to be an electronics technician).
Nobody said anything about it had to be tin foil, just foil, that's all. Both Rifa and Wima makes fine specimens of those. Both can be had from Elfa, and the usual suspects.
Magura
If want to get a serious industrial film cap look for so called pulse caps you know the ones that specify current ie dV/dt or for a given C value ( like these here or here from Wima). The weak link for all film caps is the method of attaching the metalization/foil to the termation end cap or wire.
Flame spray is what Roederstein used see thermal spray details here.
Flame spray is what Roederstein used see thermal spray details here.
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Best and worst components ?
I have found that the source ( including the Digital to Analog electronics and the storage medium.........like CD player/dac/the recording on the CD ) is key to all this drive for better components.
If it isn't impeccable then the difference in sound will not be audible. That's assuming the amp and speakers can resolve small differences themselves !
And yes, some cheap components do a remarkable job and come very close to if not equal some pretty expensive components . Many industrial grade capacitors do a fantastic job though many audiophiles will not be caught dead with them I guess! I've used a motor run capacitor which sounds exactly like a botique capacitor at less than 1/10th the cost. It doesn't look pretty and is fiddly to fit in physically.
All components do not change / improve sound the same way in different applications. Like for example , a capacitor which makes a remarkable difference to the sound in one amp may not give the same effect in an amp with a different build/design . You need to try it out. It's a complex situation with many permutations and combinations. There is no single best component for all applications.
I have found that the source ( including the Digital to Analog electronics and the storage medium.........like CD player/dac/the recording on the CD ) is key to all this drive for better components.
If it isn't impeccable then the difference in sound will not be audible. That's assuming the amp and speakers can resolve small differences themselves !
And yes, some cheap components do a remarkable job and come very close to if not equal some pretty expensive components . Many industrial grade capacitors do a fantastic job though many audiophiles will not be caught dead with them I guess! I've used a motor run capacitor which sounds exactly like a botique capacitor at less than 1/10th the cost. It doesn't look pretty and is fiddly to fit in physically.
All components do not change / improve sound the same way in different applications. Like for example , a capacitor which makes a remarkable difference to the sound in one amp may not give the same effect in an amp with a different build/design . You need to try it out. It's a complex situation with many permutations and combinations. There is no single best component for all applications.
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I agree with BAS. In very simple, zerro global feedback amps the differences are more audible then in equipment with heavy and stable feedback.
In passive loudspeakers, components are audible. In my privat spaekers i use RIFA PHE850, non inductive thick film resistors and backed litzwire coils. All not too expensive. Active speakers are better but not sellable to high end customers. The two companies i know in Germany that sell well to that bread are Geithein and Backes und Müller. Geithein has strong standing in the professional market. In TV and Radio stations they are the defacto standart so i do not know how much they sell to privat customers. B&M whent into qwnership many times and is now owned by KS, a professional company. They have just cancelled most of their dealers and sell over very view flagship stores now.
In passive loudspeakers, components are audible. In my privat spaekers i use RIFA PHE850, non inductive thick film resistors and backed litzwire coils. All not too expensive. Active speakers are better but not sellable to high end customers. The two companies i know in Germany that sell well to that bread are Geithein and Backes und Müller. Geithein has strong standing in the professional market. In TV and Radio stations they are the defacto standart so i do not know how much they sell to privat customers. B&M whent into qwnership many times and is now owned by KS, a professional company. They have just cancelled most of their dealers and sell over very view flagship stores now.
I guess I could parallell some FKP2 for the desired result?
It's good to remember that they are an option but I'm not sure they are quite right for the immediate application due to the space required.
A more expensive small (sizewize) cap might be better suited and cheaper in the end since space is at a premium.
As it is, it looks ike I'll be going with Multicap RTX caps and Shinkoh tantalum resistors.
These are small and although expensive I won't have to morgage the house.
Since they'll be going "inside" the interconnect cables I put functionality and ease of use first.
Metal film resistors and metalized pp caps would be cheaper but I haven't heard a single person speak up for that combination so I guess I'll go the other way.
It's good to remember that they are an option but I'm not sure they are quite right for the immediate application due to the space required.
A more expensive small (sizewize) cap might be better suited and cheaper in the end since space is at a premium.
As it is, it looks ike I'll be going with Multicap RTX caps and Shinkoh tantalum resistors.
These are small and although expensive I won't have to morgage the house.
Since they'll be going "inside" the interconnect cables I put functionality and ease of use first.
Metal film resistors and metalized pp caps would be cheaper but I haven't heard a single person speak up for that combination so I guess I'll go the other way.
You didn't ask
Now you have.
Metal film resistors (mil spec, as I'm colorblind), Rifa PHE426 caps, Rifa PEH169 caps for the psu, Vishay MKP film caps for when bigger than 15uF is called for.
Magura
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