The quality of the bass was excellent. It only played down to about 25Hz. Obviously it didn't have subwoofer output, but was great for music. Even bettered newer subwoofer drivers or speakers.
I agree that for a sub or speaker with low impedance you should have a low impedance wire.
Do you have a favorite 12" subwoofer or woofer you could recomend. I've got two 5 cu. ft. (142 L) boxes with two 12" holes I need to fill.
1.0-1.5mm solid core copper is plenty fore most speaker cable needs
Many have experienced the sound/music getting worse by using thick cables, and many have never realised it, unfortunately
I have even seen people using thick 1mm copper wire fore interconnects
I have no idea what these people have been thinking about
But speaker cables does effect sound
Doesnt matter if they are 1feet or 5feet, its still there
Many have experienced the sound/music getting worse by using thick cables, and many have never realised it, unfortunately
I have even seen people using thick 1mm copper wire fore interconnects
I have no idea what these people have been thinking about
But speaker cables does effect sound
Doesnt matter if they are 1feet or 5feet, its still there
Hi PaleRider,
I have investigated patch cables (or interconnects) anD speaker cables for many years. Just so you know ....
B
Are you aware that most often, the resistance of the connections will exceed the impedance of the entire run of speaker wire? It's true!
Are you aware that most often, the impedance of the crossover completely swamps the total impedance of everything outside the speaker box? That's true as well.
Are you aware that the output impedance of the amplifier itself is greater than the normal run of speaker wire? Really, it is!
The resistance of the length of wire between amp(s) and speakers, where the amplifier(s) are located with the rest of the system, is the least of your troubles. That is unless you decide to run poor quality "POT64" 18 gage wire 20' or so. Most systems installed between the speakers are fine with a half decent quality 16 ga wire. My system is farther away, so I'm using 14 ga until I can get good quality 18 ga wire. The system uses 150 wpc solid state amps, or 20 ~ 35 watt tube amplifiers and the speakers are 4 ohm nominal.
One reason your statement seems odd is because a given power level will have the same voltages and currents running through the speaker system. Where this comes from matters not to the speaker.
I can't believe that running the signal from preamplifier to amplifier(s) could be recommended. The signal running from the amplifier(s) to the speakers is far more robust and very unlikely to suffer more than the input signal to the amplifier(s). Yet, some self appointed experts are suggesting exactly this!
Kurt has made some excellent remarks. These basically point out how little an effect is at audio frequencies. Things like "skin effect" are an RF concern, not audio for pete's sake. With speaker cables, dielectric absorption will not effect the very low impedance of the amplifier - speaker system. So, forget that argument too. The purity of the copper used in speaker cables is of no concern unless you get into the really cheap stuff. "Oxygen free" isn't as soon as you expose the copper to the air, like when you attach it to a connector. That's where you'd really want "oxygen free", another one down.
danielwritesbac made an interesting remark. Let's examine it a bit.
I think that people often worry about things that are not really an issue. If you take the time to figure out what the magnitude of the effect is, and compare that to other existing parts of the audio system, there would be a great deal less hand wringing going on. Relax people, listen to some music.
-Chris
Interesting.
I have investigated patch cables (or interconnects) anD speaker cables for many years. Just so you know ....
B
You may think this is true, but this view in incorrect. You aren't looking at the entire picture.
Are you aware that most often, the resistance of the connections will exceed the impedance of the entire run of speaker wire? It's true!
Are you aware that most often, the impedance of the crossover completely swamps the total impedance of everything outside the speaker box? That's true as well.
Are you aware that the output impedance of the amplifier itself is greater than the normal run of speaker wire? Really, it is!
The resistance of the length of wire between amp(s) and speakers, where the amplifier(s) are located with the rest of the system, is the least of your troubles. That is unless you decide to run poor quality "POT64" 18 gage wire 20' or so. Most systems installed between the speakers are fine with a half decent quality 16 ga wire. My system is farther away, so I'm using 14 ga until I can get good quality 18 ga wire. The system uses 150 wpc solid state amps, or 20 ~ 35 watt tube amplifiers and the speakers are 4 ohm nominal.
That's an odd statement to make! I once had a temporary hookup in a school gathering, two Heathkit EA-3 amplifiers for stereo, at about 12 wpc or so. Extreme power loss with the thin zip cord, telephone wire (quad) was terrible. A length of 18 ga POT64 solved those problems. The speakers were about 12' away, 8 ohm.
One reason your statement seems odd is because a given power level will have the same voltages and currents running through the speaker system. Where this comes from matters not to the speaker.
Yup. No difference. The job of a power supply in equipment includes the filtering out of noise. Unless the power supply in the equipment is not designed well, you are not going to hear or measure any differences between them. Sad but true.
Positioning the amp by the speaker is the worst thing you can do in my book. The two most delicate signal paths in most systems would be the ones with lowest amplitude, a high impedance level makes the even worse. So, that would be the turntable cartridge connections to the preamplifier, and between the preamplifier and power amplifier(s). Using an active crossover increases the number of sensitive signal runs. The signal from your preamplifier does not run at line level as a rule. In fact, plugging the phono signal cables into the power amplifier will create sound that can be heard. That means that levels on the order of those mV levels common to phono circuits are present between the preamplifier and amplifier(s). How many people install their turntables away from the preamplifier without taking special precautions (like a phono preamp / line driver)?
I can't believe that running the signal from preamplifier to amplifier(s) could be recommended. The signal running from the amplifier(s) to the speakers is far more robust and very unlikely to suffer more than the input signal to the amplifier(s). Yet, some self appointed experts are suggesting exactly this!
Kurt has made some excellent remarks. These basically point out how little an effect is at audio frequencies. Things like "skin effect" are an RF concern, not audio for pete's sake. With speaker cables, dielectric absorption will not effect the very low impedance of the amplifier - speaker system. So, forget that argument too. The purity of the copper used in speaker cables is of no concern unless you get into the really cheap stuff. "Oxygen free" isn't as soon as you expose the copper to the air, like when you attach it to a connector. That's where you'd really want "oxygen free", another one down.
danielwritesbac made an interesting remark. Let's examine it a bit.
The amount of inductance in a standard parallel "zip cord" type cable is actually pretty small. Compare that to what is inside the speaker crossover and cabinet. Still wondering? Okay, how about the output inductor between the speaker cable and actual amplifier circuit in the amplifier(s)? If you do compare these values, you will see that the inductance of normal speaker wires will not add very much to the system. Another bit of folklore down for the count.
I think that people often worry about things that are not really an issue. If you take the time to figure out what the magnitude of the effect is, and compare that to other existing parts of the audio system, there would be a great deal less hand wringing going on. Relax people, listen to some music.
-Chris
Banned
Joined 2002
I think it's interesting that this obsession with speaker cable and/or interconnects really exploded in the mid 80s, coincidentally the era of the 'flat earthers' (at least here in the UK) when any amplifier worth its salt had no tone controls - just volume and source selector and sometimes (shock horror!) a power LED!
As there were no controls on the amps to fiddle with, nothing to adjust, playing around with speaker cables became the new 'tone control' filters... albiet an expensive form of 'knob twiddling' (!). Interesting also that it tends to be those that haven't dabbled with DIY, who tend to really spend the most on speaker cables... Funny how things like speaker cabling seem less important when you're aware of other more important factors like circuit design, PSU design and so forth after having built or designed a few items yourself.
Bottom line: People NEED to have control over something!
If we had the PERFECT amplifier and source, and loudspeaker, people would STILL complain, and would start altering something, just so they have power/control over their system, and something to change. Just so that they can say to someone, well I have done THIS, and it now sounds much better than it did - better than yours!
I DO believe however the speaker cable can alter an amps behavoir - take for example Naim electronics. The cable really is part of the amplifiers design. Using any other cable (if not selected carefully) can result in sub-standard reproduction, or - worse - cause oscillation. I found the same thing using a GB150D amplifier I built. I wish more amplifier manufacturers would actually INCLUDE cable with their designs. Speaker cable seems to me the equivalent of selling someone an amplifier, but leaving out a few resistors/capacitors, giving you a bag with different values, and asking the user to 'guess' by using their ears which values are correct!!! It's rather silly - unless the amplifier really is designed so well that literally ANY cable can be used with no change to performance. It's unfortunate that cable companies and marketing departments JUMPED on this area of uncertainty and have now twisted it out of all proportion. Trouble is after so many years of all this cable ** in magazines it comes to be accepted as truth after a while...
I imagine VERY few hi-fi enthusiasts just sit there and listen to the music and never change anything for years - perhaps this is something to do with human psychology... we NEED to keep scaling new heights?
Interestingly I feel part of the reason people love the LP so much, over CD, is that - again - people like something to have control over, and to fiddle with. LP offers probably the most tweakable format out there. Every change of tracking weight, or catridge, or VTA, of drive system, platter material etc etc and so on results in slight changes to the sound. It's the ULTIMATE variable tone control system - and NOTHING will EVER be set up perfectly... (there's just too many variables which can effect playback) and that is far more desirable to the hi-fi enthusiast then something like CD which offers far less opportunity to alter the sound to such dramatic effect. People LIKE to say I did THIS, and it sounds so much better now. It's almost a form of modern voodoo!
Lastly, even though they have fallen out of favor during the last 20 years or so, I think that tone controls are a useful item to have on an amp. Time was that you used a cable which 'did the job' and allowed the system to work AS DESIGNED. If you still weren't keen on the sound and it needed some tweaking you'd alter the tone controls. When you think about it, this is all people are really doing by going through endless cable upgrades. It's an expensive form of chasing your tail, and as each recording is made on different equipment, you'd need a HUGE bag of speaker cables to get the best out of everything - lol! So all told, I think the tone control should make a comeback into the world of hi fidelity and we can kiss goodbye to this cable nonsense, and still have something to tweak for those less well recorded albums.
Anyways - just a few ramblings to keep this thread going
- John
As there were no controls on the amps to fiddle with, nothing to adjust, playing around with speaker cables became the new 'tone control' filters... albiet an expensive form of 'knob twiddling' (!). Interesting also that it tends to be those that haven't dabbled with DIY, who tend to really spend the most on speaker cables... Funny how things like speaker cabling seem less important when you're aware of other more important factors like circuit design, PSU design and so forth after having built or designed a few items yourself.
Bottom line: People NEED to have control over something!
If we had the PERFECT amplifier and source, and loudspeaker, people would STILL complain, and would start altering something, just so they have power/control over their system, and something to change. Just so that they can say to someone, well I have done THIS, and it now sounds much better than it did - better than yours!
I DO believe however the speaker cable can alter an amps behavoir - take for example Naim electronics. The cable really is part of the amplifiers design. Using any other cable (if not selected carefully) can result in sub-standard reproduction, or - worse - cause oscillation. I found the same thing using a GB150D amplifier I built. I wish more amplifier manufacturers would actually INCLUDE cable with their designs. Speaker cable seems to me the equivalent of selling someone an amplifier, but leaving out a few resistors/capacitors, giving you a bag with different values, and asking the user to 'guess' by using their ears which values are correct!!! It's rather silly - unless the amplifier really is designed so well that literally ANY cable can be used with no change to performance. It's unfortunate that cable companies and marketing departments JUMPED on this area of uncertainty and have now twisted it out of all proportion. Trouble is after so many years of all this cable ** in magazines it comes to be accepted as truth after a while...
I imagine VERY few hi-fi enthusiasts just sit there and listen to the music and never change anything for years - perhaps this is something to do with human psychology... we NEED to keep scaling new heights?
Interestingly I feel part of the reason people love the LP so much, over CD, is that - again - people like something to have control over, and to fiddle with. LP offers probably the most tweakable format out there. Every change of tracking weight, or catridge, or VTA, of drive system, platter material etc etc and so on results in slight changes to the sound. It's the ULTIMATE variable tone control system - and NOTHING will EVER be set up perfectly... (there's just too many variables which can effect playback) and that is far more desirable to the hi-fi enthusiast then something like CD which offers far less opportunity to alter the sound to such dramatic effect. People LIKE to say I did THIS, and it sounds so much better now. It's almost a form of modern voodoo!
Lastly, even though they have fallen out of favor during the last 20 years or so, I think that tone controls are a useful item to have on an amp. Time was that you used a cable which 'did the job' and allowed the system to work AS DESIGNED. If you still weren't keen on the sound and it needed some tweaking you'd alter the tone controls. When you think about it, this is all people are really doing by going through endless cable upgrades. It's an expensive form of chasing your tail, and as each recording is made on different equipment, you'd need a HUGE bag of speaker cables to get the best out of everything - lol! So all told, I think the tone control should make a comeback into the world of hi fidelity and we can kiss goodbye to this cable nonsense, and still have something to tweak for those less well recorded albums.
Anyways - just a few ramblings to keep this thread going
- John
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Then you need better connectors.
Perhaps as you say "MOST OFTEN" but it is possible to keep XO impedance very low, I guess we are talking about quality audio.
Another serious generalisation. On my amplifiers a length of about 30cm high purity 12AWG copper cable that connect the output from the pcboard to the output connectors, drop the DF by half.
Maybe so in well designed low power equipment, not that I've come across many. With high power amplifiers it is easy to harm SQ with mains noise filtering, a good cable may work better.
Both have their own drawbacks, with line level the voltages may be even larger than what run in the speaker cables, the current is much lower which allow for the use of more optimum cable dia. With TT's I agree with you.
Here I disagree, a 12AWG copper cable have a 35% increase in impedance at 20kHz.
Well that may depend on what you are happy with and what music you listen to, to me detail is what make a system sound 'real', detail is the first that get lost.
I agree, it is just so much nicer to listen to something that sound 'real'.
John,
I have tried I do not recall how many varieties of cabling over the past 9 years or so, but have only "changed" the cables once in all that time permanently. I found what makes my system sing and have not found the need to make any other changes in cables in, oh about 5 or 6 years I guess. Why is it that people continue to say that cables make no difference in a "system", but then you state that Naim has engineered a system that must use their proprietary cables or else the system becomes unstable? Which is it, do they make a difference or not?
If you can not or chose not to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it? This is the thing that I can not get my arms around. Some will say that they do and some will say they don't, but it has never stopped the "pro" camp from doing what they "hear" from trying to find the best cables for their own personal systems.
What is so wrong with this and why all the fuss by those that disagree? This debate will rage for years and years and nobody will change their attitudes one way or the other. Maybe its time to get on with other matters that both sides believe can make our audio systems play music that will increase the believability of the music that they play
John, that "explosion" coincided with the general uptick in equipment pricing and economic bad times. People couldn't swap out (for example) preamps and power amps as often as they used to. As you said, they needed to somehow have control- or as Nelson Pass would say, a need to still be entertained. Aha! We can swap out wires and capacitors! That doesn't take a month's paycheck (though later on, it sure could, as the more cunning snake oil guys recognized both a market niche and the astounding gullibility of audiophiles, coinciding with an improvement in the economy).
Your observation that sociology drives this sort of nonsense is astute. The pseudo-science arguments given here are a perfect example of the rationalization process at work.
Your observation that sociology drives this sort of nonsense is astute. The pseudo-science arguments given here are a perfect example of the rationalization process at work.
Consider the following statement:
"If you can or chose to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it?"
Removing the negations in your quoted statement yielded a perfectly valid statement, as well. The key word here is "you" and the problems are starting with any attempt to extrapolate your findings to "others".
You would of course ask why the other, "objectivistic", experiences/opinions can be extrapolated. Here's where your team is on a collide course with the concept of "proof" and formal logic. And where pretty much the discussion breaks to nonsense.
John,
I have tried I do not recall how many varieties of cabling over the past 9 years or so, but have only "changed" the cables once in all that time permanently. I found what makes my system sing and have not found the need to make any other changes in cables in, oh about 5 or 6 years I guess. Why is it that people continue to say that cables make no difference in a "system", but then you state that Naim has engineered a system that must use their proprietary cables or else the system becomes unstable? Which is it, do they make a difference or not?
If you can not or chose not to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it? This is the thing that I can not get my arms around. Some will say that they do and some will say they don't, but it has never stopped the "pro" camp from doing what they "hear" from trying to find the best cables for their own personal systems.
What is so wrong with this and why all the fuss by those that disagree? This debate will rage for years and years and nobody will change their attitudes one way or the other. Maybe its time to get on with other matters that both sides believe can make our audio systems play music that will increase the believability of the music that they play
I never once said in my post that cables do not make a difference...
What I AM saying is that it becomes an obsession - and the marketing people know this VERY well now and charge obscene amounts of money for what is - no matter how pretty the cable may be, or what marketing terms are used - a metal conductor shrouded in a dialectric. And THAT'S IT! That is what people are being charged silly money for. I think it's sick! I really do.
The problem is compounded by people attributing 'sounds' to the cable. I.e. one sounds 'hard' and another sounds 'mellow' and so on. It is not hard to see how this has happened though: I was using DNM cable with my GB150D amps (a Greg Ball DIY design) and attributed a hard-edged sound to the cables. Later I learned that the amp was operating on the very edge of instability, hence giving this sound. Swapping to a more suitable cable banished this sound. Nothing wrong the the DNM cable per-se, but it's electrical characteristics just didn't suit the GB150D (well until some mods were made, but that's off-topic here).
This all goes back to my original statement that I wish amplifier designers would either include, or recommend an exact type of speaker cable for their amps, so one knows the unit is operating as it should, and we can get rid of all this snake oil voodoo and 'magic cable' nonsense and instead concentrate our efforts elsewhere. People would stop being fleeced too - that's what I really object to. I have nothing against people experimenting and having fun - that's why we're all here - but the cable companies who make all sorts of wild claims and charge through the teeth really wind me up.
Off my soap box now...
If you do not agree then why object? Does it affect you some how? If so then who's fault is that? Trying to persaude others to come around to your point of view is a power thing in my eyes, not trying to prove anything other than your point of view is the correct " version" of truth. Those that do hear, never tell others that they have to notice and I could really care less what anyone else thinks about what I do with "my" system.
Again what I fail to comprehend is why that it seems to bother those that demand that we can not hear what cabling does to "our" systems. Has the opinions of those that say it simply can not be changed any of the other sides minds about what they hear from cabling differences in their systems. How many years has this been going on now?
It just amazes me the sheer amount of effort that has been expelled in the effort to try to change the minds of "hearing" side of this argument. To what length will this go in their attempts to persuade the "hearing" crowd to abandon their views? Does this not boil down to personal ego? I am right and you are wrong. Why do you not understand!
Petty at best and overtly childish to continue to try to win an argument that the other side really could care less what the other thinks about the situation in the end, as it does not stop what is being done. It is akin to arguing with the wall. When do you tire of this exercise? Does the wall have a face or feature that reminds you of a past foe that you never conquered? When is an argument no longer an argument. How many people have any of the "non-hearing" among us managed to change the views of others lately? I would say that would be zero, but you continue on as if you were peoples' God and final answer to everything in audio. It is about power in the end. When do we let it go and move on to more productive discussions that will not be filled with innuendo and snide remarks about the other? I rarely see anyone make the remarks about the non-hearing crowd, except when they have been badgered and nipped at endlessly. Right is right and fair is fair. What you do not agree with is not an invitation to attack, but it is a chance to accept.
When people come together with a common interest, it is always easier to pick out the differences among them. It is harder, but much more civilized, to look for the common traits that brought them together in the first place, rather than seek to destroy with the differences. What would any civilization be like if the latter were allowed to run rampant? Not my idea of nirvana.
Agreed, besides speakers are all different in their demands. I would prefer to select my own cabling based upon the rest of my system, not simply depend upon the amplifier/preamplifier manufacturers to be the final judge.
First of all one would have to ensure that _this_ engineering solution would lead to the same results as the _other_ solution (btw also an engineering solution
), as from an engineering point of view there might exist a difference at least because of lumped component vs. distributed components(other factors as screening issues left out for simplicity) .
And second why not simply use a cable with suitable parameters?
Remember even with the passive network the user still needs a cable.
The fact that you were not proposing a test, but a solution did puzzle me, because you normally don´t believe that there is any audible difference existing as long as no controlled test has confirmed the difference.
So which way to confirm the audible difference due to a passive network if not by a controlled test?
Wishes
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