I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

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And for the end user it all boils down to using your ears to decide what makes you happy. We are talking about listening devices for musical enjoyment right?

This may shock you Brook cause I think you don't fully understand my position, but yeah, I agree with you 100%.

After all, none of us have the same ears, and we certainly do not all share the same tastes. (tho some studies a la toole et al DO point to a commonality of preference, but being a Bell curve even then we can expect and find outliers at each end).

In the end we all hope everyone ends up with the system that gives them maximum pleasure, which is kinda why a forum like this exists in the first place. People can ask questions, learn and apply what works for them and progress along that path.


And hey, if you or anyone else wants to do blind testing when making decisions then right on man. But I don't think its very realistic for some of these guys to say stuff like "All cables sound alike" or my favorite "Its your responsibility to provide proof" like we are in a classroom doing a science experiment and we must use scientific protocol and etiquette.

Please step back for a second and just examine the point I'm trying to make (as I have often said, in the heat of an argument we ALL sometimes throw rationality out the window and resort to pure emotion..emotion is good btw!! as it is audio and we do want an emotional response to it.:D But we don't need to be emotional when talking logic or facts, save it for the listening).

Still, would you agree that IF all cables sounded alike, it is then realistic for 'us' to state that?? I mean someone could say that the sky is purple (and honestly believe it), but surely it is realistic for the rest of us to say it is actually blue??

So, to date, it has been extremely rare for anyone to differentiate between cables when blinded to identity, and until they can and do (let's wait and see how Tom goes) surely it is realistic to state the current understanding of the matter.

Your favorite "Its your responsibility to provide proof", well c'mon. I do remember saying that to you a few pages ago, when you informed me it was MY responsibility to prove they don't sound different.

Hmm, I do recall also making the point that you seem to accuse others of your own actions, looks like you have done it again.

Your posts have been removed, so I cannot quote you here.

BTW, what do you reckon is the percentage of us who 'believe in dbt's' (if that is a correct phrase) is that actually DO dbt's? I dunno either! I reckon it would be pretty low.

I have done one, and yeah, it is an eye opener all right.



Hey Kareface, the only reason people bring up product bias in a cable thread is to use it as some kind of tool for convincing people all cables sound alike when we both know the mention of product bias can be introduced only as a theory since you don't have information on everyone and every piece of equipment.

Maybe some bring up product bias for that reason, I would not. But it IS one factor (among many) whose influence needs to be accounted for. There are other influences too that need to be controlled. Personally I would not put it as high on the list as it has recently become, but it IS there at some stage of the decision making chain.

And as such, if it has not been controlled for then it reamains a question mark.

What is it that you want? Everyone to study up on electronics and buy some equipment and test every available aspect of their stereo equipment and to then make decisions only based on that information and fully disregard what they hear? Don't you think if that were reasonable, completely effective, and always worked then more people would be doing that and spending less time here posting in a 13 thousand 5 hundred plus thread posting about a topic that is no closer to some kind of solution or agreement than it was on the first page???

NOT that your false premise of suggesting kareface wants everyone to study specs and choose by using that method has any resemblance to what he has repeatedly said, but for arguments sake let's assume he said that statement, you don't really think the rest of your argument holds water do you?

Sheesh, there are still may many many thousands of people who think that the universe was made in seven days, no matter the weight of evidence against that thought.

Since when has logic or facts ever interfered with someones deeply held beliefs?



I'm telling people not to worry about things they cannot or will not control to forget blind testing as it is confusing

See, I asked you about this quite specifically a few pages ago, and from what I could glean from the long discussion about valve amps and valve rolling when you replied I got the basic idea you found it impractical to do blind testing. Well that is fine, I understand that you find it too bothersome to do.

But that is no valid reason to discard the results of blind tests that have been done. Is it?

Would you discard those results if they HAD shown audible differences by saying 'well, I cannot do blind tests so those tests prove nothing to me'?

I think we all know the answer to that question.

I just don't think its reasonable to use it to say "All differences among cables are product bias" since no one has ever proved they don't affect the sound of your equipment.

Again, I agree fully with you.

:cop:

olblueyez and kareface,

We have a rule around here about getting personal in your posts. You are allowed attack the idea, not the person. First and only warning to both.

aww, how come all the 'fun' happens when we are asleep over here??:)

New rule in diy I reckon, any posts that will be removed have to stay up for twenty four hours, so everybody can catch the action!!! haha.

:cop: OT personal remarks removed.

Does that mean we can still use On Topic personal remarks??:D

If you also removed OT non-personal remarks then this thread would shrink dramatically.;)
 
Nor do yours. So let's look at those DBTs.

Yep, so let's make sure that at least Toms dbt is done as well as we can collectively ensure it can be done.

RDF, on that point, (it might be hard to answer honestly??) from your currect position how highly do you a) rate the protocol that will be used in Toms test as you understand it..eg is there anything in particular you would like to see rigorously applied? etc etc, b)how much do you 'trust' SY to be scrupulously honest in it's conduct?

You two are after all on the opposite side of the fence on this question. In other words, is any of your doubts of previous dbts based on doubts of the conduct of the people involved?
 
And for the end user it all boils down to using your ears to decide what makes you happy. We are talking about listening devices for musical enjoyment right?

You know that's not really true. What you choose to listen to on your "playback" system is your business, but there is nothing that states that it has to be music. "Accuracy" is "accuracy" weather its music, bird calls, thunderstorms, or jet engines. The sound system has no idea what the sound its "reproducing" is. If its accurate for one thing then its accurate for everything and the source need not be music.
 
You know that's not really true. What you choose to listen to on your "playback" system is your business, but there is nothing that states that it has to be music. "Accuracy" is "accuracy" weather its music, bird calls, thunderstorms, or jet engines. The sound system has no idea what the sound its "reproducing" is. If its accurate for one thing then its accurate for everything and the source need not be music.

Maybe in a perfect world but since most things are based on compromises it would still be better to optimise a system for its intended use.
 
in the interest of honesty and transparency, I'd like to comment on the matrix test that has been linked.

(yeah, it all came about because this test appealed to my own prejudices in audio)

THIS is the genesis of the DBT I mentioned that I had been involved in. In fact I called it the matrix test on our local forum haha.

In short we did NOT duplicate those results, in the end most that formed a preference did choose the expensive system we used. (we had a very first generation cdp with the corresponding integrated amp, with generic interconnects a la oldblueyz posted before, with house wiring for speaker cables, vs a ten thousand dollar cdp with class A monoblocks with a well known pre whose name escapes me right now, with about six thousand worth of interconnects and speaker cables. The expensive set up cost around twenty thousand, who can give a current dollar value on 1980's cdp and amp??)

Only about ten people participated. A few could not pick the difference at all, the others who could (as I said) did prefer the expensive system. AFAIR no-one preferred the cheap over the expensive (which is the big difference between results).

From memory, the quickest it took someone to tease out the differences between the two was around half an hour.

Me? Well, I am a cheapskate, I heard the two and was so astonished at how close they sounded, that I did not bother spending more than two minutes trying to differentiate.

(if I spend more than twenty bucks on audio, you'd better make sure I can readily tell a difference hahahaha).

Seriously, for the difference in price I need far far more improvement than was on show.

Enough of my 'pontification', I felt it only far to point out WE did not get the same split of preferences as that of the link.
 
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