Hi John,
thank you for your post.
So do you just connect the cap in parallel to the signal generator feeding a square wave of 700Hz?
No DC offset added to the signal?
No resistor anywhere to limit perhaps current (with a sqaure wave with low falling/rising time, the output of the signal generator will drive a pulse current close to the limit of the output stage capabilities, is it bad?) ?
Why 700Hz? is it just a random value you picked or there is a reason for choosing that frequency?
thank you for your post.
So do you just connect the cap in parallel to the signal generator feeding a square wave of 700Hz?
No DC offset added to the signal?
No resistor anywhere to limit perhaps current (with a sqaure wave with low falling/rising time, the output of the signal generator will drive a pulse current close to the limit of the output stage capabilities, is it bad?) ?
Why 700Hz? is it just a random value you picked or there is a reason for choosing that frequency?
What about the innocent tubes in the amp? Use your Chinese spares?
The only teflons i have experience with were russian FT3 and i probably didn't give them a chance to break in - so horrible was the sound. As a general rule i don't use parts which don't sound decent within 24 hrs - life is too short.
Don't worry too much about the details. An associate made a 555 timer version of a break-in device that worked with a lowish frequency square wave. This seemed to work pretty good for everybody who used it. The generator will current limit, if it is not a power amp, at least. DC is not usually necessary. It seems that the better quality caps, like Teflon take longer and are harder to break-in. Why this is so, I don't know, but it is pretty darn consistent in experience.
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What about the innocent tubes in the amp? Use your Chinese spares?
The only teflons i have experience with were russian FT3 and i probably didn't give them a chance to break in - so horrible was the sound. As a general rule i don't use parts which don't sound decent within 24 hrs - life is too short.
Very many people have been using the FT-3 or FT-2 as a cost effective interstage Teflon coupling cap when making that simple phono stage I have posted for almost a year now, and they report only good stuff in its thread. But I have heard ''everybody raves about Teflon but I just hate it'' from a guy that makes really good gear that I have experienced and like. He has very good taste and wide experience in music and audio. Go figure...
On the second part... I am like you. If something does not show 80% of its colors in 48h, I just can't give it much more thought. Interestingly, the guy above said ''all good with Teflon during the first 24h, then its a mess''. Which contradicts the popular consensus that they are stiff at start. Go figure no 2...
The ''I have been told this and that'' rears its ugly head once more. It takes to check stuff out in one's own things.
I have a wavetek signal gen, I haven't measured the maximum output current yet, nevertheless specs say that it is capable of 20Vpk-pk on 50ohm, thus a maximum current of 0.4A pk-pk (140mA RMS) I guess.
Would this be too much for the braking in or can I safely connect all them in parallel?
What about swapping the direction of the caps not to brake them in unidirectionally as somebody suggested on previous posts!?
Is it true?
Sorry if I overstress on these details, but I want to make sure I am not ruining the sound's potential of these expensive caps.
Many thanks
Hi Stefano,
I don't have a clue as to the sonic benefits, but it would be easy to rig up a relay and 555 timer to reverse the caps at any interval you like. We're really talking about the same thing, just at different frequencies. A DC offset with occasional reversal is just a very low frequency square wave. A good rule is "test it the way you'll use it" and that probably applies to break-in as well. If the cap will have a bias voltage, why not break it in with the same bias voltage?
As for the Wavetec, it does 20Vpp and it drives a 50 ohm impedance, but probably not both at the same time, and the specs might not say. I'd use a 50 ohm resistor in series with the cap for any square wave or high frequency tests to protect the generator. If you need more power, rig up a power amp of some sort.
It would be really interesting to split a bunch of caps into two groups. Burn in one group only. Then, swap them in and out of an amp and see if anybody could really tell the difference. The caps would have to be matched in value. My experience with Teflon caps is zero because they aren't available in any useful value to me. IMO, admittedly a WAG, is that some of the sonic characteristics of Teflon caps result from people using too small a value for the application, because it wasn't practical to get the necessary value, and because the results of slight roll-offs on overall sound quality aren't appreciated as much as they should be.
CH
I don't have a clue as to the sonic benefits, but it would be easy to rig up a relay and 555 timer to reverse the caps at any interval you like. We're really talking about the same thing, just at different frequencies. A DC offset with occasional reversal is just a very low frequency square wave. A good rule is "test it the way you'll use it" and that probably applies to break-in as well. If the cap will have a bias voltage, why not break it in with the same bias voltage?
As for the Wavetec, it does 20Vpp and it drives a 50 ohm impedance, but probably not both at the same time, and the specs might not say. I'd use a 50 ohm resistor in series with the cap for any square wave or high frequency tests to protect the generator. If you need more power, rig up a power amp of some sort.
It would be really interesting to split a bunch of caps into two groups. Burn in one group only. Then, swap them in and out of an amp and see if anybody could really tell the difference. The caps would have to be matched in value. My experience with Teflon caps is zero because they aren't available in any useful value to me. IMO, admittedly a WAG, is that some of the sonic characteristics of Teflon caps result from people using too small a value for the application, because it wasn't practical to get the necessary value, and because the results of slight roll-offs on overall sound quality aren't appreciated as much as they should be.
CH
Hi Conrad,
nice to hear from you...it's been awhile. Thanks for your post.
My experience with poliprop caps is that broken in caps usually sound smother, richer and more detailed, while when brand new they are a bit sharp and not as "liquid".
People say Teflon caps are though. The manufacturer suggests a minimum of 200 hrs braking in time.
So I guess a square wave would be a good signal since it reverses the caps at each half cycle and spectrally wise speaking it contains all frequencies.
I will therefore connect all the caps in parallel with the black wire (outer foil) to GND and the red wire to the generator throught he 50ohm.
I do tend to think the same thing: the best would be to brake them in the circuit they will be used on but, since I am still missing parts, the circuit is not completed yet.
Either way the caps need a lot of braking in time and since the actual circuit heats up a lot ...I would rather have the generator on for 24h than my stove....I mean circuit
nice to hear from you...it's been awhile. Thanks for your post.
My experience with poliprop caps is that broken in caps usually sound smother, richer and more detailed, while when brand new they are a bit sharp and not as "liquid".
People say Teflon caps are though. The manufacturer suggests a minimum of 200 hrs braking in time.
So I guess a square wave would be a good signal since it reverses the caps at each half cycle and spectrally wise speaking it contains all frequencies.
I will therefore connect all the caps in parallel with the black wire (outer foil) to GND and the red wire to the generator throught he 50ohm.
I do tend to think the same thing: the best would be to brake them in the circuit they will be used on but, since I am still missing parts, the circuit is not completed yet.
Either way the caps need a lot of braking in time and since the actual circuit heats up a lot ...I would rather have the generator on for 24h than my stove....I mean circuit
that is what i have thought till I have came across SY's post where he said that by keeping a constand DC offset, as my first set up for braking in was, I was going to hurt the final sound of the cap.
Now it is clear to me that a square wave would be a good signal for braking in.
If anybody wants to add anything else, please feel free to do so.
Now it is clear to me that a square wave would be a good signal for braking in.
If anybody wants to add anything else, please feel free to do so.
No, Salas, i didn't. The FT3 are dirt cheap and you can always give them away as presents if you don't like them as i do
And it's not just another bout of soviet-phobia which i occassionally enjoy - i quite like the K40Y9. Neither is it a question of the capacitors being too revealing for my system. My currrent favs in the same position are Mundorf Silver&Gold.
Hi folks,
I thought this post would have been of common interest.
This is what audience replied to my questions on how to brake in their caps
"Sorry but this is all wrong! With the 10K resistor in series forming a low pass network the cap only sees the DC voltage. A DC voltage will cause the dielectric to take a polarity set and this is harmful. The final DC set should be formed by the circuit it is installed in by the customer, not by us.
Use an AC output wallwart or transformer of 40-50 VAC for 100V caps. I would like to see a 100 ohm 1/4W resistor in series with 80-100VAC for 200V caps. Use the same resistor for 400V and up caps (it is a fuse) and connect these caps directly across the 120V line. The 1000V and up caps can be connected across the 240V line with a resistor on each AC leg. Be extremely careful with line voltages, they can kill! Use heavy sleeving to protect lives and connections, have an insulating surface to set the caps on. Post a HOT! sign on the caps when power is on. After you turn off the power you need to discharge the caps through the 100 ohm resistors, in other words short out the power plugs on caps that have been direct line connected. The stored charge on larger caps will hurt!"
Hope it will be helpful for who wants to brake in caps but doesn't know how.
I thought this post would have been of common interest.
This is what audience replied to my questions on how to brake in their caps
"Sorry but this is all wrong! With the 10K resistor in series forming a low pass network the cap only sees the DC voltage. A DC voltage will cause the dielectric to take a polarity set and this is harmful. The final DC set should be formed by the circuit it is installed in by the customer, not by us.
Use an AC output wallwart or transformer of 40-50 VAC for 100V caps. I would like to see a 100 ohm 1/4W resistor in series with 80-100VAC for 200V caps. Use the same resistor for 400V and up caps (it is a fuse) and connect these caps directly across the 120V line. The 1000V and up caps can be connected across the 240V line with a resistor on each AC leg. Be extremely careful with line voltages, they can kill! Use heavy sleeving to protect lives and connections, have an insulating surface to set the caps on. Post a HOT! sign on the caps when power is on. After you turn off the power you need to discharge the caps through the 100 ohm resistors, in other words short out the power plugs on caps that have been direct line connected. The stored charge on larger caps will hurt!"
Hope it will be helpful for who wants to brake in caps but doesn't know how.
why shouldn't it? If audience that makes these caps suggestes this procedure, I would think it has to help somehow
Anyways, my only perplexity would be: even the wallwarrt (220V or 125V) has a DC offset and that is why connecting the DC meter across the caps I can see a small variable DC offset.
I want to try to connect a bridge filter to correct the DC offset at the input of the transofrmer.
Anyways, my only perplexity would be: even the wallwarrt (220V or 125V) has a DC offset and that is why connecting the DC meter across the caps I can see a small variable DC offset.
I want to try to connect a bridge filter to correct the DC offset at the input of the transofrmer.
Why? Could it be part of the marketing/image management? It's something that audiophiles expect, so why not give it to 'em? If there's a break-in effect for Teflon caps, it's somehow escaped the far more demanding engineers in aerospace, telecom, and precision measurement. Only the sensitive ears of audiophiles seem to be able to pick up on this.
That should be your first clue. A hyper-expensive and exotic cap needs to have a story.
I am sorry but I do not share your thought whatsoever.
But, If you have experience with high quality audio gears and hi-end audio parts and your ears tell you that there is no difference from a brand new cap and a broken in one, then good for you that you do not have to worry about braking in parts before evaluating their sonical characteristic but just so you know...there is out there an entire world of audio designers and not that says the exact oppostite.
Oh well....world is nice because there is variety!
But, If you have experience with high quality audio gears and hi-end audio parts and your ears tell you that there is no difference from a brand new cap and a broken in one, then good for you that you do not have to worry about braking in parts before evaluating their sonical characteristic
but just so you know...there is out there an entire world of audio designers and not that says the exact oppostite.Oh well....world is nice because there is variety!
How it helps
helps their bottom line, because gullible audiophools think they're getting something "better" because it has an exotic "break-in" regimen like an italian sportscar, no doubt...
another PT Barnum moment
why shouldn't it? If audience that makes these caps suggestes this procedure, I would think it has to help somehow
helps their bottom line, because gullible audiophools think they're getting something "better" because it has an exotic "break-in" regimen like an italian sportscar, no doubt...
another PT Barnum moment
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