Even if good COG? You still back em up with film? Radial mini leg film ones I suppose?
Hi Kurt,
FMs are for sure great caps but they do have faults too, a bit of harshness and a not so controlled bass both in signal coupling and PS decoupling, IMHO.
Their tonal balance is quite neutral (just a bit too much highs).
Silmics are slightly warmer but no harshness and a much better controlled bass. Also reverbs are sligtly better with Silmics.
In my tests in analog PS decoupling Silmics bettered FMs, FCs, ZLs, KZs, FGs and FWs.
Silmics need some burn-in time (ca 40 hours), at first bass is overhelming...
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Interesting responses from all.
My own experiences agree with what I measure. The capacitors that behave nicely, low dielectric absorption and low series resistance, always behave more like what they are .... capacitors. Since I do get a more perfect capacitor performance, they also will have the least "sound' coloration. I am really looking forward to testing some of these, by listening and measuring. I love it when hearing and measuring agree!
With a simple listening test, and no other way to have a reference, I suspect that there might be too many things going on to say a particular part sounds good or bad. There is a risk that another part simply covers up the bad stuff and the more transparent part allows you to hear the bad stuff as well as the music.
A simple test jig might be in order for people interested in exploring the sounds created by different parts. For capacitors and resistors, you may want to set up a jig that allows you to temporarily install the part(s) you want to check. Allow a jumper (you can get terminals gold plated along with a matching jumper) to short out the part(s) in question. You can provide spots for more than one trial part. Those of us who can, may be able to measure distortion and also listen for a few days for any effect the trial part may have. The connectors are called "headers", you may have seen them in computer equipment. They can be bought at all major parts suppliers.
A simple project to allow real tests on components you aren't sure about. Could be a real money saver for some of you out there. Keep in mind that many rave reviews are very informally done. Try not to have any expectations (yeah, it's difficult some times).
Another point. Watch that you don't apply what musicians like to what you are doing. Two utterly and completely different applications, and they do not normally go for clean (= low distortion). A great example of this are carbon composition resistors mentioned earlier. They do change their resistance as the voltage across them changes. Great for a guitar amp, not so great for a listening amp. These are also preferred in high frequency circuits (like AM and FM tuners, or mosfet gate damping resistors). Each part design does have an application they are designed for. Some are just simply inexpensive.
So, dive in and experiment! Even a spare tape loop may tell you all you really need to know.
-Chris
My own experiences agree with what I measure. The capacitors that behave nicely, low dielectric absorption and low series resistance, always behave more like what they are .... capacitors. Since I do get a more perfect capacitor performance, they also will have the least "sound' coloration. I am really looking forward to testing some of these, by listening and measuring. I love it when hearing and measuring agree!
With a simple listening test, and no other way to have a reference, I suspect that there might be too many things going on to say a particular part sounds good or bad. There is a risk that another part simply covers up the bad stuff and the more transparent part allows you to hear the bad stuff as well as the music.
A simple test jig might be in order for people interested in exploring the sounds created by different parts. For capacitors and resistors, you may want to set up a jig that allows you to temporarily install the part(s) you want to check. Allow a jumper (you can get terminals gold plated along with a matching jumper) to short out the part(s) in question. You can provide spots for more than one trial part. Those of us who can, may be able to measure distortion and also listen for a few days for any effect the trial part may have. The connectors are called "headers", you may have seen them in computer equipment. They can be bought at all major parts suppliers.
A simple project to allow real tests on components you aren't sure about. Could be a real money saver for some of you out there. Keep in mind that many rave reviews are very informally done. Try not to have any expectations (yeah, it's difficult some times).
Another point. Watch that you don't apply what musicians like to what you are doing. Two utterly and completely different applications, and they do not normally go for clean (= low distortion). A great example of this are carbon composition resistors mentioned earlier. They do change their resistance as the voltage across them changes. Great for a guitar amp, not so great for a listening amp. These are also preferred in high frequency circuits (like AM and FM tuners, or mosfet gate damping resistors). Each part design does have an application they are designed for. Some are just simply inexpensive.
So, dive in and experiment! Even a spare tape loop may tell you all you really need to know.
-Chris
If posible, Yes! But of couse this is for digital supplies, ceramics should not be used any other place like that.
And I normally use Wima radial mini caps
I don´t doubt any of your experiences, but as always it depends on what they are used for.
The Silmic cap is mechanically damped, so that vibrations won´t harm the sound so musch, they cary this even longer in their Silmic II and Cerafine types. The FM is from an electrical point of view superior to the Elna´s, taht means you´ll have to decide what you need.
In designs based upon op-amps, the need for clean and noiseless power is not very important, as most op-amps have PSRR above 100 dB. In discrete design things can be quite different, since the amplifier, or what ever are at stake, does not have PSRR at that level. Normally PSRR in discrete design is very much lower, and the need for a strong noiseless PSU with good electrical data is very outspoken.
My friend and I´s latest project is this DAC http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138230 which now finally is coming to an end. During that we tested endless combinations of caps, the conclusion was, as long we are talking about the analog stage, that all electrolytics are bad, just some are worse than others in their own way.
So we designed them out of the analog stage, leaving only a few FM smoothing caps prior to 2 regulation stages consisting of 8 regulators..
On the digital part the FM´s were superior to anything we tried, but that could have been read from the datasheet actually.
Here they were bypassed by a film cap, and the logic circuits in the Reciever, ASRC and DAC also needed ceramics at their feet.
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anyone try the panasonic AM series?
http://nz.farnell.com/panasonic/eca1vam472x/capacitor-4700uf-35v/dp/8767327
This is NZ dollars so they are inexpensive, but little reference on the www on these.
BTW I like Elna Silmic II and are my preferred cap.
http://nz.farnell.com/panasonic/eca1vam472x/capacitor-4700uf-35v/dp/8767327
This is NZ dollars so they are inexpensive, but little reference on the www on these.
BTW I like Elna Silmic II and are my preferred cap.
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I have not given the Elnas a try by now, but I certainly will. Hemp? Sounds interesting... 
I changed all the electrolytics in my DAC (RME ADI-2) to Nichicon KZ (the 3300 uF is Nichicon FG). After a short period of disappointment (burn-in related) the new caps lifted the DAC to a higher level! The sound became more natural and even clearer than before - without any loss of richness. Coincidentally the DAC became more merciless with poor recordings (slave audio effect).
This DAC generally seems to be very receptive to modding (PSU, SRPP-Outputs and even a better enclosure). It is also rather cheap.
I changed all the electrolytics in my DAC (RME ADI-2) to Nichicon KZ (the 3300 uF is Nichicon FG). After a short period of disappointment (burn-in related) the new caps lifted the DAC to a higher level! The sound became more natural and even clearer than before - without any loss of richness. Coincidentally the DAC became more merciless with poor recordings (slave audio effect).
This DAC generally seems to be very receptive to modding (PSU, SRPP-Outputs and even a better enclosure). It is also rather cheap.
Elna Caps have always been my favorites. Silmics, and before them the RSH series, will help lift a good consumer grade analog circuit in to the 'something special' category.
When using a electolytic for signal decoupling, I always concider if it can be safely replaced with a piece of wire! I tend to use back to back capacitors where there is no appreciable DC offset to deal with, and bi-pass with a 0.1 wima MKT.
I do use the panasonic FM series sometimes, as they are readily available in a larger range of sizes, so are easier to fit in some circuits were space is a problem.
When using a electolytic for signal decoupling, I always concider if it can be safely replaced with a piece of wire! I tend to use back to back capacitors where there is no appreciable DC offset to deal with, and bi-pass with a 0.1 wima MKT.
I do use the panasonic FM series sometimes, as they are readily available in a larger range of sizes, so are easier to fit in some circuits were space is a problem.
I have used Black Gate N caps in signal path applications and really liked them. Nelson Pass told me about the Elna Silmic II's at last year's Burning Amp Festival, and so I placed my order with Digikey and replaced the Black Gates to try them out. I have to say that the Elna's are very sweet in the highs and have some authoritative bass, but not too accented or boomy. Like the Black Gates, they do an excellent job in conveying detail like timbre and PRaT. I think the Japanese (Elna, Nichicon, Panasonic, Rubycon, etc.) have done a fine job in elevating the performance of electrolytic caps as miniaturization is often a premium.
Thanks Papa.
Thanks Papa.
No one has mentioned the Jensen electrolytic line designed for audio use. I replaced and aging Sprague Atom axial with Jensen and was quite pleased with the results.
I don't understand their four pole thing on part of their line. Can someone explain that one? I read the white paper and was still lost.
Keith
I don't understand their four pole thing on part of their line. Can someone explain that one? I read the white paper and was still lost.
Keith
