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Old 13th December 2009, 11:08 PM   #121
Matt BH is offline Matt BH  United Kingdom
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I like the Evox-Rifa PEH 169 series. Check the specs, they speak for themselves:

http://www.evoxrifa.com/electrolytic...169_105deg.pdf

Of course they would be used in the power supply rather than signal circuitry. Maybe if I was forced to use a cap on the output of a single ended amp then these would be the boys. The older ones had liquid electrolyte that sloshes about. Shake one, nice. This does mean that you can only mount them upright or on their side with the vent at the top.
As far as I know they are the highest quality electrolytics you can get.
Cheers Matt.
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Old 13th December 2009, 11:11 PM   #122
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http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/30/db/alu_03/01010109.pdf

http://www.epcos.com/inf/20/30/db/alu_03/00910100.pdf
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Old 13th December 2009, 11:20 PM   #123
Matt BH is offline Matt BH  United Kingdom
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Yes, I have heard that Epcos, Evox-Rifa and the old BHC brand are one in the same.
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Old 13th December 2009, 11:35 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiefbassuebertr View Post
Some capacitor models for audio from Rubycon and ELNA (...) may provide some trouble
I have observed by repair service of some audio devices (mainly compact disc players of the higher price class), that this kind of capacitors leak out.
...
From others I have heard the same very unpleasant problems. (Google keyword: bad caps - search by images)
...
Therefore don't broke following rule in generall:
Never the use of electrolytic capacitor versions offered as a "Special Made for Audio" !!!
Neither for repair and modification service and never for new designs !!!
Some years ago Panasonic made a bad series of low ESR caps broadly used in PC Motherboards that leaked out and since we speak about bad caps...

Every brand could do a mistake like Panasonic did but today it's still regarded as one of the best elcos producer...

I cant' speak for Rubycon's Black Gates because I've never tried it but regarding Elna's Silmic and Silmic II in my 8 years old Sony SACD player there's plenty and not a single one leaked out.

And I can assure you that the player is pretty hot when powered on and as you know heat is an enemy for elcos life...

For sure there's a lot of snake oil in a number of 'audiophile' and 'for audio' components but this is not the case.

Rubycon, Elna, Nichicon and Panasonic are premium brands that made serious products.

DNM and it's Slit foils caps could be a different case but please don't generalize.
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Old 14th December 2009, 03:46 AM   #125
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaveFremen View Post
Some years ago Panasonic made a bad series of low ESR caps broadly used in PC Motherboards that leaked out and since we speak about bad caps...

Every brand could do a mistake like Panasonic did but today it's still regarded as one of the best elcos producer...

I cant' speak for Rubycon's Black Gates because I've never tried it but regarding Elna's Silmic and Silmic II in my 8 years old Sony SACD player there's plenty and not a single one leaked out.

And I can assure you that the player is pretty hot when powered on and as you know heat is an enemy for elcos life...

For sure there's a lot of snake oil in a number of 'audiophile' and 'for audio' components but this is not the case.

Rubycon, Elna, Nichicon and Panasonic are premium brands that made serious products.

DNM and it's Slit foils caps could be a different case but please don't generalize.
Gotta say I agree in general with these comments about brands and designs intended for audio applications.. I generally choose components that are specified for use in audio designs, and you will see a lot of other designers do too.

There were plenty of counterfeit and/or off brand caps showing up in pc motherboards and failing after some period of service. D*ll, H*, and other major US computer vendors had to replace thousands of motherboards with these particular capacitors. (These failing caps were not made by Panasonic or any other reputable Japanese manufacturer, but by a Taiwanese company and its subsidiaries that stole the design information, [industrial espionage is common everywhere] but somehow missed one key ingredient in the chemistry that guaranteed longevity.)
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Last edited by kevinkr; 14th December 2009 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 14th December 2009, 08:40 AM   #126
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IMHO the best electrolytics for audio are not very often specified for audio at all.
Large cans for powersupplies are crowned by the Sikorels and the Rifa PEH169 and PEH200.
Theese caps can cary enormous ripple currents @ burning hot temps year after year.
Nothing really comes close to theese caps in that sence.
The sonic impact though is somewhat different from each other, so one has to check it out, if they are suitable. The PEH 169 is a very large cap, so have a good look at the dimensions before choosing. The special thing about the Rifa´s is that the winding do not fill up the can completely. It has air around the winding, which should optimize heat transfer, hence the large ripple current capabillity. Also the equivalent series induction is very low and ESR is state of the art. This I think is accomplished by connecting the terminal to the foil 4-8 different places or even more.
Surely a lot of other parameters are optimized, but these are at least visible.

For small signal Elna Silmic has been mentioned, besides Panasonic FM/FC which are very fine caps, but also Sanyo has some interesting ones, i.e. the MV AX series.
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Old 14th December 2009, 08:46 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.B.H. View Post
Yes, I have heard that Epcos, Evox-Rifa and the old BHC brand are one in the same.
I do not think Epcos is a part of Evox-Rifa, but BHC and Dectron are.
Also now most Rifa´s are made in the UK instead of Sweden.

Epcos bought a license to manufacture Sikorel from Siemens some years ago, so Sikorel can be found as both Siemens and Epcos products.
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Old 14th December 2009, 09:14 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShaman View Post
Looking at the link above on page 109, you´ll find a graph on impedance versus frequency in theese Epcos Sikorel electrolytics.
I´m quite sure that this is @ or close to state of the art, but anyway this is a very interesting characteristica, as I find this to look very much the way electrolytic caps actual sonic impact is.
I´ve tried the experience of both using electrolytics and avoiding them.
Of course only in decoupling, as smoothing caps are unavoidable.
When no caps are present, electronic circuits suddenly begins to behave as they are supposed to. It is difficult to explain, but to me it simply seems as if the non linearity of impedance shows it self in frequency dependant q values or so. Maybe some would say "not that much", but IMHO this is a source of almost endless worries in audio design.
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Old 14th December 2009, 09:44 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt von Kubik View Post
IMHO the best electrolytics for audio are not very often specified for audio at all.
Large cans for powersupplies are crowned by the Sikorels and the Rifa PEH169 and PEH200.
Theese caps can cary enormous ripple currents @ burning hot temps year after year.
Nothing really comes close to theese caps in that sence.
The sonic impact though is somewhat different from each other, so one has to check it out, if they are suitable. The PEH 169 is a very large cap, so have a good look at the dimensions before choosing. The special thing about the Rifa´s is that the winding do not fill up the can completely. It has air around the winding, which should optimize heat transfer, hence the large ripple current capabillity. Also the equivalent series induction is very low and ESR is state of the art. This I think is accomplished by connecting the terminal to the foil 4-8 different places or even more.
Surely a lot of other parameters are optimized, but these are at least visible.
Exact I think the same.
About
http://www.evoxrifa.com/electrolytic...169_105deg.pdf
and the most other brands there is an other interest detail:
If you compare the impedances by the voltage, you will note, that the lowest impedance there is by the 63V versions (check it e. g. by 10.000uF)
This means, not in all cases the highest value of capacitance (according the highest possible mounting space) is the best choice. In some cases, where I normally use 40V version, the 63V Version by a lower capacitance could be better (10.000/63V is the better choice than 22.000uF/40V). I think, by the 63V versions all parasitic effects are at lowest.
By the follow datasheets this mentioned behavior is not so:
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektr...2009/G2009.pdf
one of my favorite caps for amp power supplies are the follow:
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektr...009/GW2009.PDF
large sizes and expensive, but one of the best caps (47.000uF/63V).

Only the mentioned types (post #2) about this weblink could be better, but unfortunately much more expensive:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid...tic-wanted.htm
Dou you have heard about such high capacitances in non polar MKP versions?

Also WIMA had introduce some new types like this:
http://www.wima.de/DE/supercap_mc_1.htm
not for power amplifiers but interesting for RIAA head amp power supplies

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 14th December 2009 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 14th December 2009, 10:00 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiefbassuebertr View Post
Exact I think the same.
About
http://www.evoxrifa.com/electrolytic...169_105deg.pdf
and the most other brands there is an other interest detail:
If you compare the impedances by the voltage, you will note, that the lowest impedance there is by the 63V versions (check it e. g. by 10.000uF)
This means, not in all cases the highest value of capacitance (according the highest possible mounting space) is the best choice. In some cases, where I normally use 40V version, the 63V Version by a lower capacitance could be better (10.000/63V is the better choice than 22.000uF/40V). I think, by the 63V versions all parasitic effects are at lowest.
By the follow datasheets this mentioned behavior is not so:
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektr...2009/G2009.pdf
one of my favorite caps for amp power supplies are the follow:
http://www.ftcap.de/downloads/elektr...009/GW2009.PDF
large sizes and expensive, but one of the best caps (47.000uF/63V).
FT caps look nice, but you can still cut the ESR to ˝ with PEH169, and ripple capabillity of the Rifa´s are just in a class their own.
So I think availabillity would make the choise for me.
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