Actually I totally agree with Qusp on this one. I also find them dark and un-revealing... I had to add a bypass cap just to get something acceptable from them...
Do they reveal themselves after many hours and if so, how many hours of burn in is required?
Do
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Well I actually gave it some time to burn in with a MKP1837 bypass cap. Tried my preamp on the Fetzilla where it sounded dark and lacking details and same results if only a minor improvement and then another amplifier, my ML-2 Clone where it sounded really good! Could it have been a impedance match issue?
Ciao!
Do
Ciao!
Do
pinnocchio,
I don't think impedance mismatching is the problem. It never fails to make me laugh at how hide bound the whole audio business is compared to computers, where they are always pushing the boundaries.
There simply is'nt enough research done and when it is, it is always done with heads stuck in the past. Fans don't have to be noisy, chassis don't have to be rectangular boxes that do nothing to dissipate heat but still the industry uses them - the inertia effect.
According to some, in theory these caps should be crap - in reality look at those on this thread who have actually used them - and rock on them.
No one in their right mind would eat raw onion accompanied by wine - somethings go together and others don't.
These caps sounded crap in one piece of equipment but not in another, it would be interesting for you to describe what the difference in components is between the two amps - after all this was the same cap you used.
I don't think impedance mismatching is the problem. It never fails to make me laugh at how hide bound the whole audio business is compared to computers, where they are always pushing the boundaries.
There simply is'nt enough research done and when it is, it is always done with heads stuck in the past. Fans don't have to be noisy, chassis don't have to be rectangular boxes that do nothing to dissipate heat but still the industry uses them - the inertia effect.
According to some, in theory these caps should be crap - in reality look at those on this thread who have actually used them - and rock on them.
No one in their right mind would eat raw onion accompanied by wine - somethings go together and others don't.
These caps sounded crap in one piece of equipment but not in another, it would be interesting for you to describe what the difference in components is between the two amps - after all this was the same cap you used.
Yeah... Really can't explain this but the caps have had over 40 hours of burn in now and they're still in my JC-2 Clone preamp (The preamp I use on different amplifiers).
So, JC-2 Clone with those caps on FetZilla = not good but on ML-2 Clone and My_Ref FE it is really good... Maybe my JC-2 clone is just not a good match with the FetZilla... I used same cables and speakers for the tests.
Trust me, I'm not one to make myself believe I heard something different if it's not there. I will do more testing... and probably with different caps as well.
Thanks
Do
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It's hilarious when people pass judgment on something they haven't heard or investigated. It's possible that the capacitor in question uses something other than PETP. The Russians have always been rather loose with their quality control, and that extends to materials. When capacitors are specified, the important part is breakdown voltage, ESR, heat rating, size, resistance to humidity, resistance to shock, resistance to actual physical abuse, power factor, inductance, frequency response, temperature drift, and in special cases, distortion. It doesn't matter what it says on the package. If you take it at face value, you are a sucker.
So....I guess none of you nay-sayers ordered them, measured them with a distortion analyzer versus a known polyester cap, then tore them down for analysis at a lab? If not, you are parrots, repeating audio jargon. In my experience, with huge speakers that are somewhat bright, these Russian capacitors are physically better damped, across the board, than the metallized products. There are other reasons a film and foil will sound better, but people tend to downplay the way capacitors "sing along", and convert external vibration into signals. The biggest shock I ever had in audio, other than getting bitten by a tube power supply, was hearing my fingernail rub across a metallized cap in a phono stage. Crazy. It was loud too. There's no way that it wasn't contributing to the sound of the phono stage.
So....I guess none of you nay-sayers ordered them, measured them with a distortion analyzer versus a known polyester cap, then tore them down for analysis at a lab? If not, you are parrots, repeating audio jargon. In my experience, with huge speakers that are somewhat bright, these Russian capacitors are physically better damped, across the board, than the metallized products. There are other reasons a film and foil will sound better, but people tend to downplay the way capacitors "sing along", and convert external vibration into signals. The biggest shock I ever had in audio, other than getting bitten by a tube power supply, was hearing my fingernail rub across a metallized cap in a phono stage. Crazy. It was loud too. There's no way that it wasn't contributing to the sound of the phono stage.
Most people would have learnt to keep their fingers out the first time
Interesting observation though, i have read that caps resonate to the signal but never thought it would work the other way around.
I just tried this with my phono stage. Dead silent. Ah well, maybe it's because I used Wima metallized caps instead of some "audiophile" brand. Or that I avoided combinations of materials (like silver and PTFE) that are susceptible to triboelectric noise.
Your assumption is correct. I don't think the looser tension of "hand wound" caps helps the voltage withstand, though.
Just saw this thread - I like the Russian PETPs, too. I use the 1.8uF/160V K73-16 axial as the input coupling cap in MyRef Rev C and a MiniRef 1875. It sounds very natural and non-fatiguing - it's neither too bright nor too dark.
Note that both these amps have almost 0V DC bias across the input coupling caps, and that's the region where Polyester/PETP/etc. are the most linear.
I'd like to know how the different variants differ - i.e. K73-P3, K73-16, K73-16B, etc.
Note that both these amps have almost 0V DC bias across the input coupling caps, and that's the region where Polyester/PETP/etc. are the most linear.
I'd like to know how the different variants differ - i.e. K73-P3, K73-16, K73-16B, etc.
I have old military and industrial film and foil Mylar, US production from the '60s-80s, and all of them sound better than the average audiophile polypropylene. Some were extremely expensive when new, so I'm not surprised that they perform well. I imagine they have very pure materials and extensive tweaks to the winding and sealing process.
Some months ago I received a PM from an American commercial loudspeaker producer who was concerned about what he would do when his stock of K73-16 caps (he had around 200) ran out as the value he needed were no longer available.
So, he contacted an American cap manufacturer to see if they could replicate the Russian cap. They told him it was not PEPT but a high Ohmic metallized polypropelene film.
As he said "he has yet to find a cap that equals the K73-16, if the copy falls short, he will continue the search".
I received another email from him telling me that he has a friend who manufactures amps who has done blind tests with listening panels and the K73-16 has been consistently selected as superior to even the most expensive Teflon film caps!
I have a pair of handmade de Graaf (Groningen/Freisland) silver foil caps, they were mega expensive and are bloody good but better than the K73-16s - if only I had known about the Russians I would have saved a load of folding stuff.
Years ago on many forums there were those who were rec. Russian PIOs/Teflon but not one mention of the K73-16s.
linuxguru - if you look at the OPs first or second post he states that 'he has tried all the different variants and there is no meaningful difference between them.
As to their construction, they are superior to almost all other caps I have seen, maybe, just maybe this has a positive effect, producing a neutral cap.
For me they are the cap equivalent of the Vishay Z foils - they simply convey the signal without any interference.
People talk about 'a house sound', with the K73-16s there simply is'nt one.
I am replacing all the caps in my Heybrook Sextet speakers with these, luckily there are plenty of 63V ones left - sometimes you just have to get lucky
So, he contacted an American cap manufacturer to see if they could replicate the Russian cap. They told him it was not PEPT but a high Ohmic metallized polypropelene film.
As he said "he has yet to find a cap that equals the K73-16, if the copy falls short, he will continue the search".
I received another email from him telling me that he has a friend who manufactures amps who has done blind tests with listening panels and the K73-16 has been consistently selected as superior to even the most expensive Teflon film caps!
I have a pair of handmade de Graaf (Groningen/Freisland) silver foil caps, they were mega expensive and are bloody good but better than the K73-16s - if only I had known about the Russians I would have saved a load of folding stuff.
Years ago on many forums there were those who were rec. Russian PIOs/Teflon but not one mention of the K73-16s.
linuxguru - if you look at the OPs first or second post he states that 'he has tried all the different variants and there is no meaningful difference between them.
As to their construction, they are superior to almost all other caps I have seen, maybe, just maybe this has a positive effect, producing a neutral cap.
For me they are the cap equivalent of the Vishay Z foils - they simply convey the signal without any interference.
People talk about 'a house sound', with the K73-16s there simply is'nt one.
I am replacing all the caps in my Heybrook Sextet speakers with these, luckily there are plenty of 63V ones left - sometimes you just have to get lucky
Just tried K73-11 as they seems tobe PETP also . I used it on most critical place, series as a signal coupling in my 300b amp value 0.47uf just before grid . I took about 5 sec yo notice thats it worse than standard polycap .Dull and lack of highs . Are the Different tha K73-16 types ??? I ordered from ebay some 22uf K73-16 types to try them on crossover series cap . Sees what happens?
Papparazzi
Papparazzi
One answer - burn in!! Those Russian caps need to break in some - last time I used a set it took upwards of 50 hours to settle down. Started out like you say dull... I just turned down the volume and put it a CD on repeat for a good 2 days worth.. took a listen half way thru and they were still not settled. I used to be a non-believer on cap burn in, but the Russian caps need so run time before listening.
I find the petp k73-16 thinner and titlted upwards bass strangled, whereas the russian ft teflons seem to fill out the sound a lot more top to bottom, sounding more balanced, the teflon i found a bit too slippy/soapy for me but closer to no cap , great separation. Both types used as coupling caps and in psu.
I tried most of the latest greatest russian wonder caps mentioned be overzealous bargain hunters on these boards, theyre filling up the unused buckets.
I prefer to put the money into an audio specified cap.
The big green ones, k75 i think are boxed up in cupboard for 4 years, sounding too cloudy, stuffy, and remind me of signal loss.
I tried most of the latest greatest russian wonder caps mentioned be overzealous bargain hunters on these boards, theyre filling up the unused buckets.
I prefer to put the money into an audio specified cap.
The big green ones, k75 i think are boxed up in cupboard for 4 years, sounding too cloudy, stuffy, and remind me of signal loss.
Sounds lika a BS.
I have 650 pages thick Soviet data book on caps.
K73-16 is listed as Polyethylene terephthalate.
Capacitor designations were always (!!!) according to GOST 11076-69 standart.
Capacitors options Directories Amateur Electronics
SteB,
your one of the few to have tried these caps who is not impressed. I'm curious as to the values you used for a psu and as coupling caps. Also exactly what equipment did you use them in?
So how much did you pay for your 'audio specified caps' and what do you think the K73-16s were used for - making Russian popcorn.
elektroj - perhaps the cap manufacturer made it up because they could'nt replicate the Russian cap but as the forum member had no financial gain either way, what was the point in him telling me b/s.
your one of the few to have tried these caps who is not impressed. I'm curious as to the values you used for a psu and as coupling caps. Also exactly what equipment did you use them in?
So how much did you pay for your 'audio specified caps' and what do you think the K73-16s were used for - making Russian popcorn.
elektroj - perhaps the cap manufacturer made it up because they could'nt replicate the Russian cap but as the forum member had no financial gain either way, what was the point in him telling me b/s.
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