Bob Pease's article on "Capacitor Soakage" is probably (still) on National Semi's website -- good for insights on what makes a capacitor sing. I think his points were more in reference to difficulty with sample-hold and timing circuits.
Cyril Bateman's articles in EW, I think it was a 7-part series, did a lot in terms of quantifying capacitor distortion, although I don't recall if he examined the sonics at all.
My 2-cents -- the little Wima MK2SL caps -- if you have to use a cap -- are pretty nice sounding in low voltage applications -- and the form factor can't be beat.
Cyril Bateman's articles in EW, I think it was a 7-part series, did a lot in terms of quantifying capacitor distortion, although I don't recall if he examined the sonics at all.
My 2-cents -- the little Wima MK2SL caps -- if you have to use a cap -- are pretty nice sounding in low voltage applications -- and the form factor can't be beat.
Yes, and if anyone is interested in the Russian versions that are paper and PETP (like Sprague Hyrel Q), I have plenty I would like to sell. They have an interesting winding geometry that I believe lowers inductance, but I'm not sure. If I remember correctly the are film and foil and are physically larger than most caps of similar value. I make no claims as to what they might sound like.
John
John
Of course this whole thread now brings to mind if it should have been retitled
"PETP K-73 Military capacitors-ONE OF THE BEST??"
As of the present time there is no way of confirming genuinely what the K73's are made of inside those ruggedly constructed ?hard metallic outer casings, nor have various other manufacturers PETP caps been compared to them.
So this thread is exclusively dedicated to the K73's from my perspective in terms of sound quality.
"PETP K-73 Military capacitors-ONE OF THE BEST??"
As of the present time there is no way of confirming genuinely what the K73's are made of inside those ruggedly constructed ?hard metallic outer casings, nor have various other manufacturers PETP caps been compared to them.
So this thread is exclusively dedicated to the K73's from my perspective in terms of sound quality.
someone might correct me on this but the K75's are a mixture of PETP and ??paper/oil.
Their sound in general in the circuits that i have used them in is extremely even handed from top to bottom (almost 'invisible' frequency wise)but without the vitality (micro and macro dynamics)and top end air/transparency brought in by the F73's.
Their sound in general in the circuits that i have used them in is extremely even handed from top to bottom (almost 'invisible' frequency wise)but without the vitality (micro and macro dynamics)and top end air/transparency brought in by the F73's.
If anyone is interested you can see me in actual 'action' for better or for worse, tinkering with caps to my hearts delight, on a valve amplifier, on this thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118979&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118979&highlight=
An other opinion ; Audio Asylum tubes DIY:
In Reply to: Re: Large Value PIO caps that click ... posted by Derick on May 28, 2002 at 02:54:37:
Dielectric types of some russian caps:
(russian letters alliterated in latin)
K31, SSG, SGM, KSO - mica, some types with silver - good
K40 - PIO - very good
MBGxx, KBG-xx, OMBG - PIO
K42, MBM, BM-x - paper (w/o oil ??)
K70, K71 - Polystyren ("polystirol") - good
K72, FT - teflon ("ftoroplast") - THE BEST
K73 - Polythelene Teraphthalate film ("lavsan") - poor
K75 - combined Paper+Film (Polythelene Teraphthalate??, with or w/o oil??)
K76 - Laquer film
K78 - Polypropilen
Question:
What kind of dielectric used in caps marked as "MMK" (not russian
)
Thanks.
Regards.
Alex.
In Reply to: Re: Large Value PIO caps that click ... posted by Derick on May 28, 2002 at 02:54:37:
Dielectric types of some russian caps:
(russian letters alliterated in latin)
K31, SSG, SGM, KSO - mica, some types with silver - good
K40 - PIO - very good
MBGxx, KBG-xx, OMBG - PIO
K42, MBM, BM-x - paper (w/o oil ??)
K70, K71 - Polystyren ("polystirol") - good
K72, FT - teflon ("ftoroplast") - THE BEST
K73 - Polythelene Teraphthalate film ("lavsan") - poor
K75 - combined Paper+Film (Polythelene Teraphthalate??, with or w/o oil??)
K76 - Laquer film
K78 - Polypropilen
Question:
What kind of dielectric used in caps marked as "MMK" (not russian
) Thanks.
Regards.
Alex.
HI PR AUDIO
always good to get feedback from others
but the post you have quoted also says at the start of it
"Here is a short summary I copied from somewhere"
and ends with
"It doesn't matter how you stir
the pot, Bu-ls-it in always equals Bu-lsh-t out!! "
"from somewhere" ??? what does that mean, and therefore how meaningful is that. The final line is not very inspiring either. I felt the rest of the thread comments were also a little dubious in their aims.
Here is the full thread from which you quoted
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubediy&m=140839
Also I do have to take note of the comment regarding the quality of the K73. I believe they sound at least ok but never 'poor'!!!!
I have no problems with people getting findings different to mine but please lets have more personal creditable objectivity!
always good to get feedback from others
but the post you have quoted also says at the start of it
"Here is a short summary I copied from somewhere"
and ends with
"It doesn't matter how you stir
the pot, Bu-ls-it in always equals Bu-lsh-t out!! "
"from somewhere" ??? what does that mean, and therefore how meaningful is that. The final line is not very inspiring either. I felt the rest of the thread comments were also a little dubious in their aims.
Here is the full thread from which you quoted
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubediy&m=140839
Also I do have to take note of the comment regarding the quality of the K73. I believe they sound at least ok but never 'poor'!!!!
I have no problems with people getting findings different to mine but please lets have more personal creditable objectivity!
Yeah, when they eventually show up - getting impatient which is ridiculous considering they have to travel to the other end of the world.
My system uses an F3 amp to drive a full ranger and has been optomised for detail, so should be able to hear some differences. There's some spares and will bang some of 'em into the headamp, too.
My system uses an F3 amp to drive a full ranger and has been optomised for detail, so should be able to hear some differences. There's some spares and will bang some of 'em into the headamp, too.
Okay, Folks
The Caps arrived yesterday and exchanged the 4.7uF PP AmpOhm for the Rooshin' 4.7uF/63volt K73-16 skinny metal cased things as the bipass cap to the main F3 amp's output cap (Siemens Sikorel [41550] 22,000/40v) and it has 21volts dc across it. The amp is wired throughout with 0.7mm 4 - 9s silver and drives my Coral betta8's (without only minor cone resonance now) from 250Hz up from the Lorrantz 12" base.
[Alternative "monitors" are the AKG701 (rewired!) from same amp - for when you want to get really picky - good for working on NOS cd players!]
With only about 15 hours on them, these things are quite remarkable - they definitely have more detail than the AmpOhm PPs and remind me a bit of the Teflon/Tin ones but don't seem to have as much "edge" - I've got the amp cranked up quite a lot with that DiMeola/McLaughlin "Friday Night..." cd - the audience noise is a bit annoying, but the balance of the music is rather good.
Before I had the K2 sampler going ("This is K2 HD Sound - Various Artists") to see what the lower mids would come out like - the AmpOhms are rather good here (IMO, naturally!) - I think there is a bit more detail in the K73 caps, but the base is a bit "fatter" - quite attractive actually, but not as clean.
How, you are going to say, can a 4.7uf cap on a 22,000uF possibly effect the base notes?!!
Well, it goes like this - I haven't a clue, but it does!!
Imagination? Quite possibly, but consistent phantom results and I'll stick by them!
Remember, the F3 is a current gain amp, not the usual voltage device, and so the choke is now across the mid driver and the caps are across the base - back to front!
Next thing will be to replace the caps across the 12" base driver (6dB/oct Xover) - currently a mixture of Clarity Cap SA, AmpOhms, and a Janzen 1uF Superior Z, plus the obligatory blue 15nF 1837 cap (waste of space, but ...!)
This maybe give a contradictory result as the speakers generally only require about 1 - 2 watts (100+ mA) but we'll see.
So far, these things are quite a big surprise - rather astonishing actually, and if they continue to develop over the next week, as i expect .....
Thank you Audiojoy for passing on the good news.
Will report about the Xover results - I have enough for a complete K73 replacement - might connect them to a 10volt (ac)transformer for a day or so, to hasten the "break-in" period.
The Caps arrived yesterday and exchanged the 4.7uF PP AmpOhm for the Rooshin' 4.7uF/63volt K73-16 skinny metal cased things as the bipass cap to the main F3 amp's output cap (Siemens Sikorel [41550] 22,000/40v) and it has 21volts dc across it. The amp is wired throughout with 0.7mm 4 - 9s silver and drives my Coral betta8's (without only minor cone resonance now) from 250Hz up from the Lorrantz 12" base.
[Alternative "monitors" are the AKG701 (rewired!) from same amp - for when you want to get really picky - good for working on NOS cd players!]
With only about 15 hours on them, these things are quite remarkable - they definitely have more detail than the AmpOhm PPs and remind me a bit of the Teflon/Tin ones but don't seem to have as much "edge" - I've got the amp cranked up quite a lot with that DiMeola/McLaughlin "Friday Night..." cd - the audience noise is a bit annoying, but the balance of the music is rather good.
Before I had the K2 sampler going ("This is K2 HD Sound - Various Artists") to see what the lower mids would come out like - the AmpOhms are rather good here (IMO, naturally!) - I think there is a bit more detail in the K73 caps, but the base is a bit "fatter" - quite attractive actually, but not as clean.
How, you are going to say, can a 4.7uf cap on a 22,000uF possibly effect the base notes?!!
Well, it goes like this - I haven't a clue, but it does!!
Imagination? Quite possibly, but consistent phantom results and I'll stick by them!
Remember, the F3 is a current gain amp, not the usual voltage device, and so the choke is now across the mid driver and the caps are across the base - back to front!
Next thing will be to replace the caps across the 12" base driver (6dB/oct Xover) - currently a mixture of Clarity Cap SA, AmpOhms, and a Janzen 1uF Superior Z, plus the obligatory blue 15nF 1837 cap (waste of space, but ...!)
This maybe give a contradictory result as the speakers generally only require about 1 - 2 watts (100+ mA) but we'll see.
So far, these things are quite a big surprise - rather astonishing actually, and if they continue to develop over the next week, as i expect .....
Thank you Audiojoy for passing on the good news.
Will report about the Xover results - I have enough for a complete K73 replacement - might connect them to a 10volt (ac)transformer for a day or so, to hasten the "break-in" period.
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