serious mode on
might be, some add resistance to "change" the sound, or some sort of filtering can also be incorporated along the cable length, like RFI absorber, or cable deliberately made to be more capacitive.
of course all above (to some different degree )could be done at the equipment side.
or equipment deliberately made to have impact on the minute change in power cord resistance/impedance.
just my thought
serious mode off
maybe blue cable make things sound cooler, hey!! I prefer brown
might be, some add resistance to "change" the sound, or some sort of filtering can also be incorporated along the cable length, like RFI absorber, or cable deliberately made to be more capacitive.
of course all above (to some different degree )could be done at the equipment side.
or equipment deliberately made to have impact on the minute change in power cord resistance/impedance.
just my thought
serious mode off
maybe blue cable make things sound cooler, hey!! I prefer brown
lineup: The old cable was the one supplied with my turntable,a 17awg one,the new one is a 12awg solid core-shielded.
Backapound: Very logical statement,and we all are aware of that.However,my humble opinion is that no matter how good or bad the mains is after all those miles of cable till it reaches our houses,we have no other choice but to consider that mains as our "reference" and the "best" we can have.
In my case,there are no dimmers or switches or anything else.I have installed a line directly from the supply board to the RCD's in my room that is only 5-6m and from there with a 2m of the same cable I have a 6-way distribution box.It is from this distribution box to the equipment that the improvements were heard.
I have some thoughts,but no,I don't have not any proven answers.This is why I would like to have some more expert opinions.
Backapound: Very logical statement,and we all are aware of that.However,my humble opinion is that no matter how good or bad the mains is after all those miles of cable till it reaches our houses,we have no other choice but to consider that mains as our "reference" and the "best" we can have.
In my case,there are no dimmers or switches or anything else.I have installed a line directly from the supply board to the RCD's in my room that is only 5-6m and from there with a 2m of the same cable I have a 6-way distribution box.It is from this distribution box to the equipment that the improvements were heard.
I have some thoughts,but no,I don't have not any proven answers.This is why I would like to have some more expert opinions.
Buckapound said:
Not really. The case of a motor being sensitive to mains cable quality is certainly interesting because, at least to me, it appears to be simpler than on an amplifier, cdp etc. The amplifier and cdp have the ability to feed all sorts of harmonics back into the mains, either polluting it for other devices or utilising the mains cable as a transmitting antenna. A motor, at least in my understanding, isn't so complicated. All it requires is as clean as possible sinewave from a low driving impedance and there isn't that much it feeds back. Certainly not megahertz switching noise from diodes or class b harmonics.
With many other devices one can't be too sure if a mains cable has an audible effect not due to the device it powers but due to other components being sensitive to noise. It may be a good idea to try similar experiments in a system where only a single device is mains powered.
I have to admit to being continuously fascinated by the effects of wire. Not that i have any particularly expensive wires in the system. I just believe that understanding the effects of wire will be fundamental to understanding a lot of the subtler effects in audio.
Can't do either. You've presented no evidence that they do make any audible difference (other than straightforward stuff like 10 amp circuits being fed by 30AWG) and no evidence to back up your assertion of the mechanisms of the as-yet unproved audible differences. So there's really nothing to disagree or agree with.
Powercables are the bloodviens that fead the powersuply, if they`re restrictive the ps will breath heavily, no matter how many caps you`ve added.
To underrstand this we allso need to look at how much damage a stranded wire does to the current signal. Not only do the thin hairs restrict powerrflow alot, flow between the hairs and reflecses/TIM degenerates the powerquality.
Solution? Solid core, like the EKKJ from here:
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~ex_en/b2b/start.do
To underrstand this we allso need to look at how much damage a stranded wire does to the current signal. Not only do the thin hairs restrict powerrflow alot, flow between the hairs and reflecses/TIM degenerates the powerquality.
Solution? Solid core, like the EKKJ from here:
https://www1.elfa.se/elfa~ex_en/b2b/start.do
after all the "normal" power cable that leads to your breaker pannel (it could be 100s of meters), and every other load (households if your lucky) tied to the same transformer output, I cant see how 1 meter of cable at the end of all this will make any difference. The one thing that might is the filtering but these two subjects should be kept seperate (and most power supplys are natural RF filters anyway). However for a turntable motor (Iam asuming there is no preamp built in) even if your talking wow, flutter and rumble I dont know see how your power cable, which is probably only feeding a few watts can make any difference, the audio signal is completly seperate from the turntable power.
cbdb,maybe I failed to explain correctly what I mean with 5-6 meters.From my house main electricity panel,from where all wiring is distributed,I have a separate line staight into a RCD in my room.NO OTHER things except my hi-fi is fed through this line.So you can see that from where the Electricity authority wiring ends and my house panel begins,I have only 7-8 meters of 12awg solid core cable to my system(5-6 till the RCD and 2m from there to my 6-way distribution unit which feeds my equipment.After the installation of this line,cable differences in my system are now more obvious than ever.I leave the technical part to the more experienced.For me,"audible"requires two ears to begin with.
From PaleRider:
"Powercables are the bloodviens that fead the powersuply, if they`re restrictive the ps will breath heavily, no matter how many caps you`ve added.
To underrstand this we allso need to look at how much damage a stranded wire does to the current signal. Not only do the thin hairs restrict powerrflow alot, flow between the hairs and reflecses/TIM degenerates the powerquality."
If this is the case, I'm not sure how the arc welder I use manages to get 300 amps through a 15 mm cable made of very finely stranded (for flexibility) copper wire. If we're just talking about power, I have a hard time understanding what physics could be involved that the audio gear cares about that the welding arc does not.
If we're talking about signal, I think it's pausible that some HF signals could be affected by minute resistive/capacitative/inductive effects of some strand-to-strand rubbing or poor contact, but we're talking about 50-60 hz here, and all it has too do is pass it's energy off from one loop of the transformer to the other. If there's a "signal" in mains power that matters to us, why do we spend so much effort eliminating "ripple"--which I take to be the selfsame thing.
Any physicists out there?
--Buckapound
"Powercables are the bloodviens that fead the powersuply, if they`re restrictive the ps will breath heavily, no matter how many caps you`ve added.
To underrstand this we allso need to look at how much damage a stranded wire does to the current signal. Not only do the thin hairs restrict powerrflow alot, flow between the hairs and reflecses/TIM degenerates the powerquality."
If this is the case, I'm not sure how the arc welder I use manages to get 300 amps through a 15 mm cable made of very finely stranded (for flexibility) copper wire. If we're just talking about power, I have a hard time understanding what physics could be involved that the audio gear cares about that the welding arc does not.
If we're talking about signal, I think it's pausible that some HF signals could be affected by minute resistive/capacitative/inductive effects of some strand-to-strand rubbing or poor contact, but we're talking about 50-60 hz here, and all it has too do is pass it's energy off from one loop of the transformer to the other. If there's a "signal" in mains power that matters to us, why do we spend so much effort eliminating "ripple"--which I take to be the selfsame thing.
Any physicists out there?
--Buckapound
No physicist,but common sense(mine at least)says that if you were given a 15mm solid core cable for your welder,then you would be in great trouble.
The flexible cable does the job but I guess if you strip one of its ends you will propably see some black copper there and perhaps that will go inside the cable for quite some distance.
The flexible cable does the job but I guess if you strip one of its ends you will propably see some black copper there and perhaps that will go inside the cable for quite some distance.
cbdb,I cannot change that.I just take it as the "best" I can have with all its problems.Some say that filtration or/and shielding at the last few meters of cable before it reaches your equipment could be beneficial to the final result.I don't know this,but I can see the logic behind it.And you are right,I didn't understand well what you meant.Sorry.And seriously,the distribution transformer is in the same street with my house,around 70meters away(really).
If you want filtration, use a filter. A perfectly good Corcom costs a couple of bucks. It also helps to use an appropriate transformer- if you're worried about line crud, that last thing you want to do is use high bandwidth line cords or toroid transformers.
In answer to Panicos, I use standard IEC cables, sized appropriately for the power requirements. Admittedly, I use Corcom filters and E-I core transformers. If someone actually can present evidence (as opposed to assertions, rumors, speculation, and anecdotes) that there's any audible improvement by using something fancier than cheap IEC cords, I'll be happy to change my opinion and practice.
In answer to Panicos, I use standard IEC cables, sized appropriately for the power requirements. Admittedly, I use Corcom filters and E-I core transformers. If someone actually can present evidence (as opposed to assertions, rumors, speculation, and anecdotes) that there's any audible improvement by using something fancier than cheap IEC cords, I'll be happy to change my opinion and practice.
No worries! Is my asumption that the turntable power is just for the motor? If so its quite a stretch that the power cord will affect the sound of your turntable, IMO its quite a stretch that the power cord will affect the sound of any decently designed piece of audio gear as long as it doesnt drop the voltage to much ie. IR drop. (capacitve and inductive effects at 50/60 hz and low impedance source (the mains) are very very small) The way most mains voltage can vary from hour to hour with no audibility suggests even this IR drop effect is limited. If simple PSU can feed >100 watt power amps with Noise + distortion figures they are reaching do you think your cable makes that much difference?
just another comment and a question. You who are lucky enough to have 220v power for you gear. The power into the transformer is ballanced an as such has a common mde rejection of the RF. My question is, dose any one know what the bandwidth of a power transformer is? I thought it was well bellow RF althought there is probably some RF leakage from primmary to secondary, anyone know how much?
cbdb said:
Indeed it's quite a stretch, but clearly audible to many. And often, the better the piece of audio gear is designed, the more audible become the power cords. IME, on practically all types of gear power cords are at least as obviously audible as speaker or interconnect wires. A single poor power cable can destroy the sound of a carefully matched and tuned system. In less optimised systems this is a lot less critical.
It's understandable that many, especially without first hand experince, are sceptical. What i find more interesting is whether anyone who hears differences between: opamps, cdplayers, preamps, capacitors or resistors would deny hearing a difference between power cords. For the ones who still debate audible differences between "competently" (what on earth does that mean?) designed amplifiers, power cords are more than a stretch.
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