I was wondering if anyone uses BNC connectors instead of RCA? I notice they are readily available in silver plate and are used in lab setups for measuring cell memebrane potentials and currents. Seems they would make a good alternative to RCAs.
Anyone see a reason not to use them? They can be made at home with various wire and the connect disconnect is very nice.
Anyone see a reason not to use them? They can be made at home with various wire and the connect disconnect is very nice.
Go for it, should make a nice, modern scientifico-industrial look to your setup (providing they are in view that is 
).
Problem, of course being that nothing else uses them, so you'd have to make/buy a lot of connectors and adapters.
Don't forget to match impedance! There's nothing worse than 257Hz going through 50 ohm coax with a 4:1 VSWR!!! (If you don't know what I'm talking about, then the purpose of coax is lost on you. *No offence intended in that statement*)
Tim
).Problem, of course being that nothing else uses them, so you'd have to make/buy a lot of connectors and adapters.
Don't forget to match impedance! There's nothing worse than 257Hz going through 50 ohm coax with a 4:1 VSWR!!! (If you don't know what I'm talking about, then the purpose of coax is lost on you. *No offence intended in that statement*)
Tim
BNCs, and other RF types too, make excellent connectors, and are often available in quality construction and materials that simply embarass audiophile masturbatory products for quality and price. And no matter how well you make an RCA, it's still a POS connector.
On previous single ended systems I've used BNCs exclusively, both because of the nice construction, and the fact that I usually got them from work for free. My system is balanced now so XLRs do fine.
The only problem is as Tim mentions, compatability with other "pre-made" cables, but as you're a diyer, make your own. They don't <i>need</i> to be coax either.
On previous single ended systems I've used BNCs exclusively, both because of the nice construction, and the fact that I usually got them from work for free. My system is balanced now so XLRs do fine.
The only problem is as Tim mentions, compatability with other "pre-made" cables, but as you're a diyer, make your own. They don't <i>need</i> to be coax either.
Sch3mat1c said:
The males are a bitch to attach to cable. But the reliability and sonics are impeccable. I wish the audio industry had standardized on BNCs.
Sch3: I don't understand what SWR has to do with anything, since the wavelengths involved are enormously larger than the length of any reasonable cable. Let's see, 16 meters is about 20 MHz, so the wavelength at 20kHz is going to be about 16,000 meters. That's a pretty hefty wire run. Impedance matching is an issue at RF, not audio.
Trivia: Anyone know what "BNC" stands for?
Sch3: I don't understand what SWR has to do with anything, since the wavelengths involved are enormously larger than the length of any reasonable cable. Let's see, 16 meters is about 20 MHz, so the wavelength at 20kHz is going to be about 16,000 meters. That's a pretty hefty wire run. Impedance matching is an issue at RF, not audio.
Trivia: Anyone know what "BNC" stands for?
SY: you are obviously forgetting just how high the audiophile's golden ear extends to. (Why would anyone bother mentioning their amp does DC to 10MHz anyway?)
I seem to remember Bayonet Naval Connector from an old Electronics Now Q&A. They also mentioned that nobody seems to know just what it is...
Oh yeah. If RCA is crappy, why is it used on TV hookups - look inside, between modulators and such. Some monitors too, old ones at least.
Tim (suprised nobody's yet used 300 ohm parallel wire for interconnects: ** lowest capacitance cabling known to Man ** )
(Why would anyone bother mentioning their amp does DC to 10MHz anyway?)I seem to remember Bayonet Naval Connector from an old Electronics Now Q&A. They also mentioned that nobody seems to know just what it is...
Oh yeah. If RCA is crappy, why is it used on TV hookups - look inside, between modulators and such. Some monitors too, old ones at least.
Tim (suprised nobody's yet used 300 ohm parallel wire for interconnects: ** lowest capacitance cabling known to Man **
)also consider lemo!
hi
if you are considering alternatives to the ubiquitous RCA in audio, don't forget lemo connectors! (BNC=ancient technology!)
especially appropriate for small signal transfers - we use them in the lab all the time for propagating mV level signals at a few MHz over ~10meter runs.
some advantages of LEMO - airtight, i.e. no possibility of long-term oxidation of the exposed conductor, come in the right sizes for direct adaptation to various co-ax recipes (belden 89259 and friends).
disadvantages are high cost (unless you get some from work, need access to special crimper tool to get them to crimp right: don't even think about buying a crimping tool (the last one we bought cost $450!)
cheers-
pradeep
ps: AFAIK, all the megabucks equipment sold by mark levinson and krell uses LEMO interconnects.
hi
if you are considering alternatives to the ubiquitous RCA in audio, don't forget lemo connectors! (BNC=ancient technology!)
especially appropriate for small signal transfers - we use them in the lab all the time for propagating mV level signals at a few MHz over ~10meter runs.
some advantages of LEMO - airtight, i.e. no possibility of long-term oxidation of the exposed conductor, come in the right sizes for direct adaptation to various co-ax recipes (belden 89259 and friends).
disadvantages are high cost (unless you get some from work
, need access to special crimper tool to get them to crimp right: don't even think about buying a crimping tool (the last one we bought cost $450!)cheers-
pradeep
ps: AFAIK, all the megabucks equipment sold by mark levinson and krell uses LEMO interconnects.
Sch3mat1c said:
Because it's far cheaper to roll two pieces of flat metal to form the connectors than it is to use a BNC. The actual measured performance of many of the modulators in a TV is poor, and they are built to absolutely minimum cost. If it "works", they use whatever is cheapest. Look inside a Broadcast facility and you won't find too many RCAs.
Tim (suprised nobody's yet used 300 ohm parallel wire for interconnects: ** lowest capacitance cabling known to Man **
I prefer single stand to stranded cables, so it's easiest (and cheaper too) to make something similar. Roll out a length of packing tape on a flat surface, and lay two runs of magnet wire as wide apart as is practical for you. Add another strip over the top and press together. You need two people to do it, but it's easy, simple and cheap, and (if such is your wont) you can even set the characteristic impedance of the cable over a range.
I've used cables like this for audio before and it works fine. Having a balanced system I now use a simple loose triplet braid of magnet wire or tefzel. I live in a rural area so RFI is definitely not an issue.
Re: also consider lemo!
Hi Pradeep,
I'd like to use LEMOs, but the objections you raise re cost and the crimper have put me off in the past. However RS have solder bucket versions at about 5x the cost of Neutrik XLRs (expensive, but not too bad, cheaper than Cardas RCAs) so I may add some (5 pole 2B's) into the chassis of my new preamp for the phono inputs. Line level can stay XLR.
I know ML used to use them, but I don't think so any more. Not sure about Krell
Cheers
psarin said:if you are considering alternatives to the ubiquitous RCA in audio, don't forget lemo connectors! (BNC=ancient technology!)
especially appropriate for small signal transfers - we use them in the lab all the time for propagating mV level signals at a few MHz over ~10meter runs.
some advantages of LEMO - airtight, i.e. no possibility of long-term oxidation of the exposed conductor, come in the right sizes for direct adaptation to various co-ax recipes (belden 89259 and friends).
disadvantages are high cost (unless you get some from work
cheers-
pradeep
ps: AFAIK, all the megabucks equipment sold by mark levinson and krell uses LEMO interconnects.
Hi Pradeep,
I'd like to use LEMOs, but the objections you raise re cost and the crimper have put me off in the past. However RS have solder bucket versions at about 5x the cost of Neutrik XLRs (expensive, but not too bad, cheaper than Cardas RCAs) so I may add some (5 pole 2B's) into the chassis of my new preamp for the phono inputs. Line level can stay XLR.
I know ML used to use them, but I don't think so any more. Not sure about Krell
Cheers
1. BNC = Bayonet N Connector. "N Connector" is another
type of connector. N may or may not stand for naval.
2. Lemos are cool if a bit pricey. Levinson made an
attempt at standardizing on a Lemo (or was it Fischer?)
but everyone just ended up with bunches of pigtail adapters.
3. Lemo or one of its clones now has a lower price plastic
version that might be interesting.
4. Maybe we at diyAudio should pick and standardize on
a particular Lemo and create our own defacto standard.
Maybe some day the commercial manufacturers will follow
suit.
5. If you think RCA connectors are bad, just be glad
we don't have to use Motorola connectors. (no this is
not a joke; more of a trivia question)
type of connector. N may or may not stand for naval.
2. Lemos are cool if a bit pricey. Levinson made an
attempt at standardizing on a Lemo (or was it Fischer?)
but everyone just ended up with bunches of pigtail adapters.
3. Lemo or one of its clones now has a lower price plastic
version that might be interesting.
4. Maybe we at diyAudio should pick and standardize on
a particular Lemo and create our own defacto standard.
Maybe some day the commercial manufacturers will follow
suit.
5. If you think RCA connectors are bad, just be glad
we don't have to use Motorola connectors. (no this is
not a joke; more of a trivia question)
Someone from Tucson crit MOT ?
critize Galvin, the boy wonder who drove MOT to the Wall. I feel sorry for ON-Semi which has very nice folks working there, at least to the extent that I have to deal with them.
An "N" connector is a UHF connector -- I used these when I did 1296 MHz as a ham op.
A Motorola Connector is used for AM radios in cars, who wouldn't know that -- now it does have a close "high end" relative which is, in fact, a great connector -- the WECO and WECO mini series.
A really, really great connector used on Electrometers is the Triax -- looks like a BNC, but with three lugs instead of two, and two shields -- these are found on very high end lab equipment.
critize Galvin, the boy wonder who drove MOT to the Wall. I feel sorry for ON-Semi which has very nice folks working there, at least to the extent that I have to deal with them.
An "N" connector is a UHF connector -- I used these when I did 1296 MHz as a ham op.
A Motorola Connector is used for AM radios in cars, who wouldn't know that -- now it does have a close "high end" relative which is, in fact, a great connector -- the WECO and WECO mini series.
A really, really great connector used on Electrometers is the Triax -- looks like a BNC, but with three lugs instead of two, and two shields -- these are found on very high end lab equipment.
FWIW....
The 50 ohm of a BNC is of course only relevant on RF frequencies. For audio the BNC represents a high quality connector a par with any others of high quality, like the Lemo CAMAC connectors used by Levinson. The CAMAC connectors only pre must be its size, - the rest,- as price, availability, handling etc. are only in its disfavour. The CAMAC was, and probably still is, extensively used in terminated patch fields, where its size is a definite advantage. Both BNCs, CAMACs, and evt others coaxial connectors like N, C, etc. are all for coaxial cables of course, and if one concludes, as some people do, that silver /teflon coaxial cables will make IC cables fully a par with alle the snake oil in the market, the BNC will be an excellent choice for audio. If one wants to take it even further, consider the smaller gold plated SMA screw on or SMB snap on connectors.
For audio, screened, non-coaxial cables have long been the standard. For these cables the RCA and the XLR have served us well for many years. The fact that the original RCA and some of the XLRs was and still is of a rather dubious and flimsy construction, does not contradict the high quality versions we have today, even if the price for these alternatives seems quite heftily overpriced, compared to the coaxial plugs. The price of WBTs top range of appx USD 30 ++ apiece is quite appaling compared to the USD10 for a gold plated SMA.
The use of RCAs for RF interconnects within units is quite OK, given the RF rule that a conductor shorter than 1/10 wavelengt can rather safely be treated as a short wire, without the need for resorting to coax cables and plugs. The RCA plug is of no-determined impdance.
The SO-239 was originally defined as a non-terminated coax connector, because of its construction. In Europe it is often referred to as a UHF connector, and often said it earned its name because of its total uselessness at UHF frequencies.....
In HiFi, cables are short, - much shorter than the 1/10 lambda rule applied in RF, thus impedance related cables and connectors have no tradition. Telephone companies and larger studioes have had to relate to transmission line audio for decades. But there is nothing wrong in applying transmission line theory and coaxial cables/plugs within HiFi, provided you accept the "Sonic qualities" of the cables/plugs in use. In my mind silver/teflon coax and BNCs do an excellent job.
BTW---- CAMAC= Computer Automated Measurement and Control
The 50 ohm of a BNC is of course only relevant on RF frequencies. For audio the BNC represents a high quality connector a par with any others of high quality, like the Lemo CAMAC connectors used by Levinson. The CAMAC connectors only pre must be its size, - the rest,- as price, availability, handling etc. are only in its disfavour. The CAMAC was, and probably still is, extensively used in terminated patch fields, where its size is a definite advantage. Both BNCs, CAMACs, and evt others coaxial connectors like N, C, etc. are all for coaxial cables of course, and if one concludes, as some people do, that silver /teflon coaxial cables will make IC cables fully a par with alle the snake oil in the market, the BNC will be an excellent choice for audio. If one wants to take it even further, consider the smaller gold plated SMA screw on or SMB snap on connectors.
For audio, screened, non-coaxial cables have long been the standard. For these cables the RCA and the XLR have served us well for many years. The fact that the original RCA and some of the XLRs was and still is of a rather dubious and flimsy construction, does not contradict the high quality versions we have today, even if the price for these alternatives seems quite heftily overpriced, compared to the coaxial plugs. The price of WBTs top range of appx USD 30 ++ apiece is quite appaling compared to the USD10 for a gold plated SMA.
The use of RCAs for RF interconnects within units is quite OK, given the RF rule that a conductor shorter than 1/10 wavelengt can rather safely be treated as a short wire, without the need for resorting to coax cables and plugs. The RCA plug is of no-determined impdance.
The SO-239 was originally defined as a non-terminated coax connector, because of its construction. In Europe it is often referred to as a UHF connector, and often said it earned its name because of its total uselessness at UHF frequencies.....
In HiFi, cables are short, - much shorter than the 1/10 lambda rule applied in RF, thus impedance related cables and connectors have no tradition. Telephone companies and larger studioes have had to relate to transmission line audio for decades. But there is nothing wrong in applying transmission line theory and coaxial cables/plugs within HiFi, provided you accept the "Sonic qualities" of the cables/plugs in use. In my mind silver/teflon coax and BNCs do an excellent job.
BTW---- CAMAC= Computer Automated Measurement and Control
Yeah yeah, the TL wires thing was a joke.. I know the wave is way too long.. But I believe that telephone has to deal with it!
Power companies do, too.. which is kinda ironic how the lower frequency power is on the smaller continents (Britain, etc.) and 60Hz covers the Americas! (Or does it, in South A.?)
Tim
Power companies do, too.. which is kinda ironic how the lower frequency power is on the smaller continents (Britain, etc.) and 60Hz covers the Americas! (Or does it, in South A.?)
Tim
South America was on 50 Hz for a short time early in the 20th century. This was during the same period of time that North America was using 25 Hz transmissions.
The one octave difference in line frequency was harmonious.
A problem arose when the North converted to 60 Hz mid century.
A tremendous 10 Hz Beat Frequency Oscillation (BFO) was created.
There is a natural difference in salinity between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. This establishes a mild electric current flow across the cannel.
The BFO was inducing a force across the electrically charged cannel waters that would react against the earth’s magnetic field. At first the motion was barely noticeable, an extra eddy in the flow of water. However within a week engineers observed rapid oscillations in water depth flowing up and down the length of the canal.
Engineers quickly surmised the cause of the problem and calculated that within a month the locks in the canal would be destroyed by the wildly varying hydraulic pressures
FDR made a personal trip to visit with the leaders of the other hemisphere and applied significant political will to get them to "update" their line frequency from metric to chronos. Apparently the name Roosevelt still carried some weight because of the former president, and FDR’s namesake, Theodore Roosevelt’s activities in the region.
(I think I should go back to work and stop bothering people)
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