forget a fluke, for right now anyways. While I'm sure evryone here has one , there are a lot of people that cannot afford one. A cheap dmm will not do you good service, however one in the $30-$50 range from radioshack or sears will. I have been using my micronta for some time now, along side a nice sears one, and they are both very close to a fluke dmm. Yes you should get a fluke sometime down the road, but for now please get a cheap dmm from the shack or sears. Better to waste a little money on one project than a lot if it doesn't work. Sometimes people get so used to spending a lot of money on a project they dont realize that others might not have quite so much in reserve. I have built several guitar amps am working on a couple of hi-fi amps right now, all have cost me between $130-$500, so even I sometimes jump to conclusions about "oh thats a cheap part you should be able to afford it" When in reality it is a $55 hammond transformer. True it is cheap compared to a luhndahl or mercury, but not cheap to someone with a very limited budjet.
Also, you may try www.tubedepot.com for parts. They dont have as good of a selection as tubesandmore, but they are located in tennesee and shipping will be less and take less time. I use both them and antique electric supply and they both have great service and have always been courtious.
Best of luck! That is a nice amp you have there- any chance you can look up the date codes on the tubes? ( should be some small numbers seperated with a dash).
Just my 2 cents- TSD88~
Also, you may try www.tubedepot.com for parts. They dont have as good of a selection as tubesandmore, but they are located in tennesee and shipping will be less and take less time. I use both them and antique electric supply and they both have great service and have always been courtious.
Best of luck! That is a nice amp you have there- any chance you can look up the date codes on the tubes? ( should be some small numbers seperated with a dash).
Just my 2 cents- TSD88~
Hi ThSpeakerDude88,
A used, working Fluke is far better than what you are using now. I'd rather see people using a Fluke 87 from Ebay - untested before any Radio Shack or Sears model.
I employed guys as technicians and had a few that used those type that you are using. Utter trash. Later, working as a calibration technician, I was able to see just how bad those were compared to a Fluke.
So much so that I can comfortably say
Buy the Fluke !!!!!! No other meters exist that don't lie, save the new Agilent.
So you are doing yourself a disfavour unless you are not taking careful measurements. Your meter is a millstone around your neck. They are fine as secondary meters, but not as your best, or primary meter.
-Chris
A used, working Fluke is far better than what you are using now. I'd rather see people using a Fluke 87 from Ebay - untested before any Radio Shack or Sears model.
I employed guys as technicians and had a few that used those type that you are using. Utter trash. Later, working as a calibration technician, I was able to see just how bad those were compared to a Fluke.
So much so that I can comfortably say
Buy the Fluke !!!!!! No other meters exist that don't lie, save the new Agilent.
So you are doing yourself a disfavour unless you are not taking careful measurements. Your meter is a millstone around your neck. They are fine as secondary meters, but not as your best, or primary meter.
-Chris
I didnt say that what I had was better than fluke... I said that they are perfectly fine and consistant enough to make general measurments when trying to get something as forgiving as a tube amplifier working. When I am working in more criticle areas I use my fluke.
I merely sugguested that he get an above-average cheap meter that he can afford right now, that he does not have to order online and pay shipping for, and wait for, rather one he can get in town preferably.
DeadSpeaker: That would make sence. It is a pretty good guess that the tubes are from 1965.
What brand are they? Try looking at the output tubes. Quite a few 6L6's bring decent money used depending on brand/plate color and type. It is nice to know just in case they are worth something, then you should be even more careful with them so as not to harm them.
I merely sugguested that he get an above-average cheap meter that he can afford right now, that he does not have to order online and pay shipping for, and wait for, rather one he can get in town preferably.
DeadSpeaker: That would make sence. It is a pretty good guess that the tubes are from 1965.
What brand are they? Try looking at the output tubes. Quite a few 6L6's bring decent money used depending on brand/plate color and type. It is nice to know just in case they are worth something, then you should be even more careful with them so as not to harm them.
anatech said:
Hmm, Tubelab has a much different opinion than you and I have to say that when dealing with noobs like myself (and the OP) I think his advice is sound. It would suck to blow up your fancy fluke because you forgot to switch it to the appropriate mode.
Tubelab's advice is to use multiple cheap meters in order to maximize safety. I'm going with his technique when I start building even though I do own a Fluke...
Isaac
isaacc7 said:
That's the nice thing about Fluke dvms, they won't blow up if you select the wrong mode unlike most cheap meters.. The only thing that happens is on the current ranges you can blow one of the internal fuses. Voltage and resistance ranges are indestructible provided you stay at or below the meter's maximum rated voltage. IMO this is one of the things that make it a particularly good choice for a newbie, and I can tell you I have destroyed enough cheap meters to pay for several Flukes, and have never destroyed any Fluke meter. I'm totally with Chris on this one, not like fixing this thing instantly is THAT urgent.
Did not realize that Flukes were not in as much risk for being blown up, but did you read Tubelab's page? I like the idea of getting all of the readings at once and not poking around in a live circuit. If they are accurate enough, I still like his approach though I won't worry about my Fluke as much now
Isaac
Isaac
Hi poynton,
So, the facts are.
1. You need one reliable meter to gauge other less expensive ones against.
2. Fighting with test instruments is no way to fix anything. They can mislead you.
3. More expensive meters are far more durable and "idiot proof" than cheap meters.
4. It's a good idea to have some cheap meters around once you know how they behave (against a standard).
Hi Isaac,
Fluke meters are protected much better than most. It is still possible to blast them to bits. They even bounce better if you leave them in the yellow plastic casing. Best of all, they hold their calibration and are accurate to higher frequencies. Another reason right there to buy a Fluke. Beware Extech meters. They do not hold their cal and are damaged easily.
-Chris
I completely agree with you. However, the fact that the meter DeadSpeaker is using is defective and not reliable came out. He is unable to test components with any confidence right now. Therefore the topic of reliable DVMs came up.
So, the facts are.
1. You need one reliable meter to gauge other less expensive ones against.
2. Fighting with test instruments is no way to fix anything. They can mislead you.
3. More expensive meters are far more durable and "idiot proof" than cheap meters.
4. It's a good idea to have some cheap meters around once you know how they behave (against a standard).
Hi Isaac,
Fluke meters are protected much better than most. It is still possible to blast them to bits. They even bounce better if you leave them in the yellow plastic casing. Best of all, they hold their calibration and are accurate to higher frequencies. Another reason right there to buy a Fluke. Beware Extech meters. They do not hold their cal and are damaged easily.
All I have to say about that is run a checklist when you are measuring. I agree that cheapo meters set properly for a number of measurements is a very good plan, but you still must start with at least one accurate meter. Go ahead and use some cheaper ones too. I do, so I agree with tubelab in a way.
-Chris
Hi Nick,
Flukes were 99.9% in calibration out of the box (we sold them with a calibration option). Years later these same meters were still within tolerance.
Most other meters were iffy on cal new. Some were out and could not be optimized due to their attenuator. Fluke uses a temperature corrected thick film assembly, most others go with separate resistors. Fluke's attenuator is corrected for higher frequencies too.
I accept that you should have new meters calibrated, however this adds about $85 to $160 to the price for a traceable cert (the only one worth anything). Since most of us can not afford that, wouldn't it be nice to have confidence that your new meter is in cal? Mine was in cal when I bought it, and still in tolerance when it was certified again 10 years later (HP 34401A). Buy quality.
-Chris
After working in a calibration lab and seeing hundreds of meters, I have a feel for new and old meters.
Flukes were 99.9% in calibration out of the box (we sold them with a calibration option). Years later these same meters were still within tolerance.
Most other meters were iffy on cal new. Some were out and could not be optimized due to their attenuator. Fluke uses a temperature corrected thick film assembly, most others go with separate resistors. Fluke's attenuator is corrected for higher frequencies too.
That's about opposite my experience unless they have Fluke making them now (doubt it), Escort may not be too bad. They may not compare to Fluke though.
Wow! Keithley's drifting? I've only seen that when they are subjected to high voltage (above ratings). Keep in mind the expected temperature range from the calibration temperature.
I accept that you should have new meters calibrated, however this adds about $85 to $160 to the price for a traceable cert (the only one worth anything). Since most of us can not afford that, wouldn't it be nice to have confidence that your new meter is in cal? Mine was in cal when I bought it, and still in tolerance when it was certified again 10 years later (HP 34401A). Buy quality.
-Chris
Chris,
Sitting in my Boss' office is a ~1 yr old fluke 88 that reads CAL on the display. I currently have a 87 and 88 (both really beat but beautiful on the inside) but wouldn't mind adding another 88 to the mix. Do you think I could get it going without spending anything??
BTW - yes, a beat fluke is better than almost anything else new...
They are more accurate over wider ranges and they make 'faster decisions'.
Sorry for a bit O.T.
Sitting in my Boss' office is a ~1 yr old fluke 88 that reads CAL on the display. I currently have a 87 and 88 (both really beat but beautiful on the inside) but wouldn't mind adding another 88 to the mix. Do you think I could get it going without spending anything??
BTW - yes, a beat fluke is better than almost anything else new...
They are more accurate over wider ranges and they make 'faster decisions'.
Sorry for a bit O.T.
I'm a test equipment snob. If it doesn't have 6.5 digits and hold a few ppm for years, I'm not impressed. My "good" meters are old HP 3455As, a HP3478A, and a few others. They cost very little on the used market. My Fluke 77 handheld DVM has been going strong for over a decade, accurate to the last count, and far better than its paper specs. I know because I maintain a bank of standard cells plus a triplet of Fluke voltage standards, cross compared and periodically calibrated. BUT, this is all nonsense for audio work (I have other needs). If you can measure within 5-10% and know your meters bandwidth, you should be able to build or fix just about anything. I don't know of many audio measurements that have to be any closer than that. It won't prevent you from matching resistors to 0.01% if you know the tricks for doing so. The truth of the matter is that when you're a newbie, you need reliable test equipment. You certainly need a reliable scope, no matter how slow. The more you know about what you're doing, the less you need and the more anomalies you can compensate for. When you know enough, you won't need any test equipment at all! There are certainly tools I craved in my early audio days, to reveal circuit mysteries. Today I have that stuff, but rarely need it. Remember that in the very early days of radio they didn't have any scopes at all, yet still managed to design and use HF circuits.
Hi mpmarino,
I'm not familiar with the 88, but I do now that the later Fluke meters were closed case calibration (yahoo!) because the proximity of the case affected the higher frequency AC cal. I had built a jig for 87's for that reason. Not perfect, but much closer than an open optimization. I sent all my jigs to the Transcat Rochester lab when I left. So some $$ is required as they need to access it with their cal program. What happened to it? Also, it should be withing the warranty period (1 year).
Hi Conrad,
Yes, you can do with less the more you know, but it's much faster to directly measure the quantity in question. I'm too busy for tricks.
Do you know that in 1920 they had oscillographs of waveforms? They must have had some way of doing this.
-Chris
I'm not familiar with the 88, but I do now that the later Fluke meters were closed case calibration (yahoo!) because the proximity of the case affected the higher frequency AC cal. I had built a jig for 87's for that reason. Not perfect, but much closer than an open optimization. I sent all my jigs to the Transcat Rochester lab when I left. So some $$ is required as they need to access it with their cal program. What happened to it? Also, it should be withing the warranty period (1 year).
Hi Conrad,
I do to (have other uses for them), but I also disagree with you. The better your gear is, the faster you get answers you can depend on. I still want to find an HP3585A and a few other pieces that I can afford.
Yes, you can do with less the more you know, but it's much faster to directly measure the quantity in question. I'm too busy for tricks.
Do you know that in 1920 they had oscillographs of waveforms? They must have had some way of doing this.
-Chris
Here in Asia, SANWA meters from Japan are well represented here, easily available since the 1960's and very competitively priced for anyone to afford. If you guys fancy Japanese instruments.. Sanwa has the required quality, good build and cheaper than Fluke, Its because of the currency exchange rate here Fluke is outrageously priced. Its like I'm quoting you the Fluke 111 costs 500 bucks.
Official site here:
http://www.sanwa-meter.co.jp/overseas/index-e.html
Official site here:
http://www.sanwa-meter.co.jp/overseas/index-e.html
The deal is this. I don't particularly like Fluke equipment (larger stuff) and I grudgingly accept that they make the best hand held multimeter going. Possibly the best multifunction calibrators too.
Why are they so darn good?
1. They were very well made, the older 87 I think was better for defect rate.
2. They use an extremely stable, accurate attenuator coupled with good PCB layout.
3. They have very good frequency bandwidth.
4. Great features.
5. Generally they are repairable for reasonable cost.
6. Case on calibration.
7. They use a four wire terminal (!) for accuracy.
8. They are well sealed to prevent contamination.
9. Intelligent flexible plastic holder / accessory - they have been widely copied.
10. Good protection for the meter.
Many copies out these days that even try to look like a Fluke. The problem is the high stability of the Fluke has not been copied. It's always less expensive to come in second.
I have grudging respect for Fluke. They are the best hand held I know of. I don't know of any other meter that lasts so long and stays in cal. Sanwa aren't bad, but I think Escort might be better for hand held meters.
-Chris
Why are they so darn good?
1. They were very well made, the older 87 I think was better for defect rate.
2. They use an extremely stable, accurate attenuator coupled with good PCB layout.
3. They have very good frequency bandwidth.
4. Great features.
5. Generally they are repairable for reasonable cost.
6. Case on calibration.
7. They use a four wire terminal (!) for accuracy.
8. They are well sealed to prevent contamination.
9. Intelligent flexible plastic holder / accessory - they have been widely copied.
10. Good protection for the meter.
Many copies out these days that even try to look like a Fluke. The problem is the high stability of the Fluke has not been copied. It's always less expensive to come in second.
Well, how do you figure the price? The Fluke will last years giving you the correct reading. This is not so with almost every other make out there. True, import fees can artificially increase the cost. That only hurts the users if they then must use a lesser meter.
I have grudging respect for Fluke. They are the best hand held I know of. I don't know of any other meter that lasts so long and stays in cal. Sanwa aren't bad, but I think Escort might be better for hand held meters.
-Chris
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