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Old 18th May 2007, 05:58 AM   #1
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Hi BudP,

About the groundside electron, maybe you could start a new thread on that one ? Is it electron trapped on the dielectric material ?

If that so, Bob Pease mentioned something similar on before and the effect is worse on Teflon PCB, The isolation of the Teflon is too great that the electron have nowhere to be disposed, his solution is same with yours, poured groundplane covering all empty part of the PCB.


Hartono Tandjoeng
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Old 18th May 2007, 07:25 AM   #2
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Hartono.

Poured ground plane, two 300mm lengths of #8 stranded wire, with as fine a strand of copper as you can get and a decent poly-something sheath. Or a 150mm length of true Litz wire with three 9mm pieces of polyethylene shrink wrap tube, shrunk tightly by 50% or so, distributed on the length of wire. The Litz must be made from insulated magnet wire and should have at least 10 times the surface area of an equivalent piece of solid copper wire. This is circular mils per amp equivalence.

One, two, three, sometimes four pieces, will increase retention of something akin to electrons and allow the circuitry to retain very fine detail and amazing amounts of coherent, large scale tiny amplitude signals. The information is there already, even in red book audio. The EE's who fly around here and pooh pooh Audiophools are quite correct about the tremendous job they have done... they just missed the ground plane side of circuitry somehow. Not as a connection to ground, with noise reduction and all, but apparently as a close by reservoir of....must be electrons, though, why they would choose to loiter within a loop of Litz wire with small pieces of plastic attached, is quite beyond me. Yes... thats a soldered together loop of wire, just attached to a convenient location, on the signal ground. Though, using the wire as a ground side conductor works just as well, if the loop thing is just too weird for you.

I buy and use a cable made from 140 strands of #40 AWG magnet wire, made from four nines copper. Quite expensive in bulk, but not so bad for one piece. Email me if you would like to know more.

Bud
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Old 18th May 2007, 08:11 AM   #3
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally posted by BudP
Hartono.

Poured ground plane, two 300mm lengths of #8 stranded wire, with as fine a strand of copper as you can get and a decent poly-something sheath. Or a 150mm length of true Litz wire with three 9mm pieces of polyethylene shrink wrap tube, shrunk tightly by 50% or so, distributed on the length of wire. The Litz must be made from insulated magnet wire and should have at least 10 times the surface area of an equivalent piece of solid copper wire. This is circular mils per amp equivalence.

One, two, three, sometimes four pieces, will increase retention of something akin to electrons and allow the circuitry to retain very fine detail and amazing amounts of coherent, large scale tiny amplitude signals. The information is there already, even in red book audio. The EE's who fly around here and pooh pooh Audiophools are quite correct about the tremendous job they have done... they just missed the ground plane side of circuitry somehow. Not as a connection to ground, with noise reduction and all, but apparently as a close by reservoir of....must be electrons, though, why they would choose to loiter within a loop of Litz wire with small pieces of plastic attached, is quite beyond me. Yes... thats a soldered together loop of wire, just attached to a convenient location, on the signal ground. Though, using the wire as a ground side conductor works just as well, if the loop thing is just too weird for you.

I buy and use a cable made from 140 strands of #40 AWG magnet wire, made from four nines copper. Quite expensive in bulk, but not so bad for one piece. Email me if you would like to know more.

Bud
must be that I just didn't spotted beginning of that issue........but I feel somewhat puzzled what you talkin' about ;
do you mind few words more or even nice pic attached?

btw- you didn't answered - which parts of Mile's document regarding 20W lab amp you need me to scan?

TIA
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Old 18th May 2007, 09:43 AM   #4
Hartono is offline Hartono  Indonesia
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Thank for your reply BudP,

I guess I will try to understand your explanation first, this is getting too much for me to understand ( Voodoo ?? ), might take a while.


Cheers
Hartono
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Old 18th May 2007, 02:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
retention of something akin to electrons and allow the circuitry to retain very fine detail and amazing amounts of coherent, large scale tiny amplitude signals. The information is there...
Are electrons compressible?
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Old 18th May 2007, 04:15 PM   #6
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Hi Ed,

I don't think you can compress electrons - but you can do some very strange things with them - if they don't do them to you first!

For example you can make them "bunch" together - you can "aim" them - you can "focus" them - "accelerate" 'em etc. The little buggers can be influenced by static fields - magnetic fields - electrode capacitance and we can use those fields to make 'em do little tricks. I'm not sure what exactly is going on with BudP's traps (or whatever it is) as I'm new to the concept and haven't given it a close look (yet ).

Take a look at this link on Klystron tubes to get an idea of how electrons can be made to "jump through hoops" and "bunch" (compressed mass of electrons but not compressed electrons) together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klystron

I used these and magnetrons - traveling wave tubes - amplitrons when I played around with RADAR's while in the Navy.

One thing you can always count on with electrons - they like to take the path of least resistance so if you decrease or increase the resistance they encounter they will find the path of least resistance even if they need to do strange things to get there.

BTW Bud - you might want to consider a new thread for this subject before you and Dave (Planet10) need to do a "rework - repost" thing. You know what a PIA that can be!

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Old 18th May 2007, 10:28 PM   #7
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Ridiculous Litz wire.

All I can say in defense of this foolishness is that I think of it as just doing a portion of the job that a true poured ground plane does. I really think it is already being done in those situations, but has never been "singled out" as a separate function from all other ground plane functions.

The #8 gauge wire, ground buss scheme, comes from Romy the Cats SE Meliquides amplifiers. I sent him some Litz to try and no improvement was discerned, at all. And he is good at this.

In my own headphone amp, with a Baxendahl tone control, driven by OP AMPs, into a long tailed cascode 6922 with cathode follower to capacitor output, I have implemented poured instrumentation grounds. Right and left power and signal are all kept separate till chassis ground and all grounds are under their function specific components. Traces are on the opposite side of the PCB. The Litz wires were applied to input signal ground and output signal ground with noticeable but not astounding results.

Addition of two loops of Litz to the output ground RCA jack to PCB lugs, in my Sony SACD / CD player, was subtly astounding. All of the high frequency energy I had been ignoring as "digital hash" in Red Book, became intelligible information about echoes, string squeaks, cymbal shimmer etc. This is just the analogue amp portion, but with single sided traces and zero PCB ground plane, except right at the ground side RCA jack lug connection to PCB and these on the same side as the traces.

I have gone on to add these to all other components. Typical is input / output grounds and cathode ground of the driver tube in preamp and amp. I also added them to speaker drivers and some modified, much reduced pieces, to phono cartridge and tape head grounds.

You can have too much of this stuff. A time smear is the result with amplified signal and a covered and dead quality occurs with the electromagnetic coil transducers, so, just slathering Litz wire all over every thing doesn't work. But, right up to that point, works brilliantly.

Bud
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Old 20th May 2007, 01:02 AM   #8
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Hartono,

I am of the opinion, ignorant as it undoubtedly is, that the surface area of the Litz, the polyester / Nylon magnet wire coating and the addition of what appear to us to be tiny amounts of plastic dielectric to these 150mm wires provides a low loss, low energy threshold "storage" for electrons.

From the electrons point of view this is an enormous galaxie of easily accessed orbits, with a low threshold charge state required for E Field stasis, where before the nearest loitering zone was out at the device ground for the building.

That the addition of these "wires" aids retention of wide band, low amplitude micro dynamics, like hall echo, trailing edge of note artistic emphasis and very small signal information, retained as understandable information, seems to support this opinion. But I am willing to be taught the truth about what is already going on because this is not just a wild hair of a theory, it does work....just like all forms of Voodoo science do.

The post attachment activity is as follows. After soldering tthe lengths in place turn on the unit and listen.

Initial sound will be almost monaural (speaking of Red Book here) in it's stage width, very high frequency oriented and quite "thin" in musical color lower frequency ranges, hence the high frequency emphasis.

After about two hours, where all of this gradually changes to a wide open sound stage with X amount of detail and then back to a pinched sound stage and undynamic character, in ever lengthening cycles. You end up with a colorful, dynamic, extremely detailed sound, with perfect balance and very analogue like character. The X level of detail increases every time this cycle runs it's course and always seems to end up with the really musical presentation as the last step.

Really, as if the Litz wire was "filling up" with electrons. Not sure of the feasibility of this description in scientific terms, but, I am quite certain about the usefulness of the end result. Not a shocking difference, but not at all hidden and hard to find either. Just seems to make the component operate like it was designed to do in the first place, but was cost cut in manufacture to the minimum performance level they seem to come with.

Bud
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Old 20th May 2007, 04:25 AM   #9
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You claim that an
(x) audible
( ) measurable
(x) hypothetical

improvement in sound quality can be attained by:
( ) upsampling
( ) non-oversampling
( ) increasing word size
( ) vibration dampening
( ) bi-wiring
(x) litz wire
( ) replacing the external power supply
( ) using a different lossless format
( ) decompressing on the server
( ) removing bits of metal from skull
( ) using ethernet instead of wireless
( ) inverting phase
( ) reversing “polarity” of resistors
( ) ultra fast recovery rectifiers
( ) installing bigger connectors
( ) installing Black Gate caps
( ) installing ByBee filters
( ) installing hospital-grade AC jacks
( ) defragmenting the hard disk
( ) running older firmware
( ) using exotic materials in cabinet
( ) bronze heatsinks
( ) violin lacquer
( ) $500 power cords

Your idea will not work. Specifically, it fails to account for:
(x) the placebo effect
(x) your ears honestly aren't that good
( ) your idea has already been thoroughly disproved
( ) modern DACs upsample anyway
( ) those products are pure snake oil
( ) lossless formats, by definition, are lossless
( ) those measurements are bogus
( ) sound travels much slower than you think
(x) electric signals travel much faster than you think
( ) that's not how binary arithmetic works
( ) that's not how TCP/IP works
( ) the Nyquist theorem
( ) the can't polish a turd theorem
( ) bits are bits

You will try to defend you idea by:
(x) claiming that your ears are “trained”
(x) claiming immunity to psychological/physiological factors that affect everyone else
(x) name-calling
( ) criticizing spelling/grammar

Your subsequent arguments will probably appeal in desperation to such esoterica as:
( ) jitter
( ) EMI
( ) thermal noise
(x) quantum mechanical effects
(x) resonance
( ) existentialism
(x) nihilism
( ) communism
( ) cosmic rays

And you will then change the subject to:
( ) theories are not the same as facts
( ) measurements don't tell everything
( ) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect
(x) blind testing is dumb
(x) you can't prove what I can't hear
(x) science isn't everything

Rather than engage in this tired discussion, I suggest exploring the following factors which are more likely to improve sound quality in your situation:
(x) room acoustics
( ) source material
( ) type of speakers
(x) speaker placement
( ) crossover points
( ) equalization
(x) Q-tips
( ) psychoanalysis
(x) trepanation

I_F
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Old 20th May 2007, 04:33 AM   #10
SY is offline SY  United States
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Nice form. Original to you? May I borrow it from time-to-time? You unfortunately left out my particular brand of irrationality involving glass, metal, and a lack of matter.

I'd think that if the sound became "almost monaural" with a wire change, that would be trivially easy to nail in a blind test. I'd be on the phone to the Randi Foundation tomorrow.
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