Groundside Electrons

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OK - if I'm getting this right and take it to the next level I come out with the giant craters are where the electrons are getting sucked in - volcano's are spewing them out - and hurricanes and typhoons are the result of the thermo dynamic exchange between the two! (well - include a bit of solar activity heating up the oceans) :whazzat:

I'm going back to the YouTube site and watch more video on reverse engineering UFO technology!! I will then get out my worm hole generator and pay you guys a visit!! :whacko:

Hey Bud - back on subject
If I understand this correctly is not the length of wire in your "electron pool" more or less critical? I seem to remember reading that to long or to short had detrimental effects. I wouldn't think that having to many electrons joining each other in the pool would be a bad thing (i.e. to long of a wire - or to much wire by size etc.). This seems to be getting us into antenna theory perhaps?

Also the type of wire seems to be critical and that seems to be getting into magnetics (one of your specialties). Hmmm -

I need to go out to the garden and ponder this a bit. I'm planting some 40 ga. mag wire out there to see if I can grow some electrons to fill in a small crater I've noticed forming near my electrical ground!


:cheers:
 
C2C,

I don't know anything about various lengths of wire and electron parking problems. I use six inches of the 140 strand #40AWG insulated magnet wire because a shorter piece, 4 inches, with the same amount of plastic performed it's illegal parking function ....just like the 6 inch piece. Why use less when you can use more?

Really, there does seem to be some vague correlation between amount of fairly slow dielectric (PVC) and length of wire. Back a few pages someone used some zip cord, or something like that, and it made the system sound awful.... and he was rightly surprised that it made any difference.. at all. Then he took off some of the insulation and things got better.

I do use a pretty low dielectric constant material and it has a low threshold value (how much you have to rub it with a wool pad, in one direction, to get it to stick to the wall) It's just heat shrink tubing, the polyethylene variety. I only use three pieces about 0.6 inches long for that 6 inch length.

I would say use the #40 wire you have for mains wiring, create some new craters and leave the naturally forming one alone.

Bud
 
Just another log for the fire....

There is a simple mod that works well on dynamic drivers. Connect a short jumper wire between the negative terminal of the driver and the drivers chassis. In most caces this can easily be achieved by soldering a jumper wire between the negative terminal connection and the rivit that connects the terminal strip to the chassis. Just check with a meter to make sure that the rivit makes electrical connection to the bare chassis.
This mod would seem to work along the same lines as Bud's electron pool idea. It is easy to do and or undo if you like. There is nothing to make and if you can hear the affect that may encourage those sitting on the fence to try some electron pools as well.
 
The hoover thing makes sense...

imagine something like a ball cut in two halves... you put the halves some distance appart...(I know it should be on poles, but you get math like this too) and through some mechanism, you manage to form an electric arch between these points...

The spark as far as I can see represents everything not at ground in an amp, and is made from electrons filling an area of lesser potential...

On a less serious note I once heard someone describe lights as dark suckers... claiming that this is responsible for matches turning black when the burn, he said lightbulbs etc suck up darkness... If it wasnt posible for the principle used in solar sails which at least determines directionality..., I would not be able to get past his argument...
 
Another method?

Hi Bud,
I've probably missed it somewhere in the thread(s), but have you considered using a capacitor instead of the Litz wire? Seems to me that a capacitor with both terminals connected to ground would achieve a similar result, depending on foil area/dielectric as well. Whaddayarekkin?

Best regards,
Mike Spence
 
mikey_audiogeek

So, why aren't you trying it out?

I am a little suspicious of the idea, but not entirely. When using the Litz it is pretty clear when you have too much dielectric or too little.

With too little plastic the "character" of the sound never seems to quite settle, it is always swinging between uptight and kind of shrill, almost monaural in it's stage width, to wide stage, lush and warmly neutral.

This is using EnABL'd speakers, which is all I have, so I am not sure what others hear.

When there is too much dielectric material, the sonics go through their swing period, stabilize to the usual wide sound stage and smooth detailed sound and then it just goes dull and clumped sounding and stays that way until you remove some dielectric material.

I would use a low picofarad silver mica or maybe polystyrene and see what comes about. I am unable to measure the capacitance on these Litz pools with my bridge, as it gets unstable below 10 pF and just starts auto ranging. I am not certain that I think the amount of capacitance is as important as having a low dielectric constant and low threshold material for the dielectric is.

Bud
 
Nordic,

This is primarily an E Field event support device. Modern electrical field theory has it that there is an E Field, or static event, for every vector change in electrical field propagation.

The electrons that are in an information "packet" cease their current flow activities and "reach out" to the electrons on the ends of any dipole of any dielectric material, near enough to them that their field potential (in simplified terms, + or -) can reorient the electron on the end of the dielectric dipole.

This reorientation also reorients the electron on the other end of the dipole and it will affect electrons near it. This is how you can signal across a dielectric barrier with static charge only signals.

These E Field moments are of course happening all of the time and in between them the electrons captured in the information "packet" flow and create a B Field event, that then produces the other form of information transfer across a dielectric barrier through magnetic coupling.

The E Field and B Field events, in a vacuum, are infinite in range, subject to the usual laws of field strength loss across physical distance.

The E field event has another interesting component, the D Field. The D Field is not modified by dielectric materials, only by distance and is only "stopped" by another charged plate.

The E Field is modified by the dielectric materials it encounters. This modification occurs primarily in three characteristics. In the amount of time to propagate across the distance to another charged plate. In density of electrons per sq cm on those plates. And, in the low level cut off threshold of dipole electrons that are reoriented.

This is the key to using dielectrics to shape an E Field, which then becomes a B Field. It is also the key to preservation, or loss, of low amplitude "information" impressed upon electrons in an information packet, as it proceeds through our amplification and replication systems.

This is the publicly understood information on E Field events, that is then modified and utilized in the Electron Pools.

Bud.
 
Capacitor trials

Hi Bud, yep I've given it a brief trial (with 0.22uF caps, waaaay too big) but will reserve judgement until I improve my speakers some more. The EnABL treatment worked well on the baffles but the minimalist crossover I'm using at the moment is causing me grief.
I'll try what you suggest, maybe even track down a variable air-spaced cap?

Best,
Mike
 
regarding the speaker mod...

no way to really tell if it is otimum but I have found a significant improvement every time I have done this.
I suppose that we might talk Bud into comparring this mod on a set of drivers on which he has what he feels to be an optimun set of elecron pools installed . So remove the pools and ground the chassis. That would give us a quantifiable comparrison to go by.
I have modified drivers with the nerative to the chassis (which connects to the top plate) and the positive connection to the pole piece. I thought that that set sounded better with both polarities than with just the negative connection alone.
 
mikey_audiogeek,

I am not sure if the grounded speaker voice coil return to frame is or is not an Electron Pool as I use the term.

You are certainly accessing another source for electrons and I would think that it has many of the same characteristics that a poured ground plane does. Without doubt {in my mind anyway) the Electron Pools are some sort of sub set of what a proper ground plane brings about.

That the Litz/polypropylene pools enhance and add a particular storage factor to a proper ground plane, seems to be hinted at in my experiments here.

I wonder what a copper flash cladding to the frame, before painting, would do, for the voice coil return, to frame connection's ability, to preserve the information packets coherence? Even an electro tin coat should be of benefit here.

As for the cross over, drop it. Just listen to the full range, or mid range driver as a full range at low levels for a bit. Then start bringing the upper frequency driver in on a cap slope, step by step. Then, when that seems right wind up an air coil and begin snubbing the mid driver down.

The use of EnABL on the baffle changes the overall air load impedance for the drivers, so you have to learn how they are working into this modified load, by some experimentation. I no longer use classical crossover techniques, instead preferring to overlap drivers based upon how EnABLing them and the baffle alters their response to the different air load.

I start off with a match point in phase between the two drivers, arrived at from close mic measurements, a 6mm distance seems to work well. Then I begin modifying both elements in a first order crossover until I have a seamless fit. Then I begin to listen to and measure what the drivers are doing, without the other driver involved and make decisions about higher order filter explorations from that information. I am interested to find out what the measured response is at 1 and 2 meters and how well the two together, are able to present a symphonic stage, with stable instrument placement, and correct decay of notes from various instrument groups.

Takes a while.

Bud
 
Moray,

You could, if I thought you were a dummy. Absolutely the most useful book on the subject comes from Ralph Morrison and is called "Grounding and Shielding Techniques" fourth edition.

Mr Morrison admits that the topic is so complex that a mathematical solution becomes impossible, in one life time, for just one instance. So he instead provides some conceptual theories and very clear visual presentations for what will become an intuitive understanding of what interactions go on between a mote of one charge value and all of the effects it has on surrounding surfaces and motes of differing charges.

Then, you only have to understand the staccato nature of an electrical field, as it goes about it's progression through changes in signal strength and come to view those changes as ones of vector.

Then a bit of thought given to what the implications are for a static moment where the D Field is open to infinity and the E Field is constrained by dielectrics, and, what sorts of alterations that might bring to a more classical view of "capacitance" and it's attendant "coupling" to an infinite second charged plate.

Stir in the theory that all electrical events in all of reality are controlled by their embedded information "packet" and that stew should do nicely ....

As far as I can comprehend these events, you can indeed cause a low threshold E Field event to occur within a complete circuit, even if the support for these low threshold electron, E Field events, happens on the "ground" side of a "circuit".

Once you have read Mr. Morrison's book, or as much of it as interests you, I am sure you will realize that a ground plane is every bit as active as the circuit above it in potential, and that the two work together to preserve the information packet, as it is transfered and transformed down the chain of audio reproduction gear.

Bud
 
moray...

1) please email me direct if possible Re:transformers

2) the theory to understanduing Electro -Magenetism is well known and understood, just the mathematics are a little complex. If you understand partial differential equations, vector calculus, matrix mathematics, divegence, curl and a bunch of other vector partial differential equations in 4 dimensions (3 co-ordinates plus "time") then it's pretty simple :)

3) See Lorraine, Corson And Lorraine "Electromagnetism" for a great book on the subject, THE standard text in Electromagnetism. Also "Div, Curl and All That"(now completely out of print, can't recall the author, but I could go downstairs to the bookshelf), for the basic concepts regarding vector calculus. But before take some 2nd or 3rd year Calculus classes. They'll help

It's pretty "daunting".

Here's the short take on the use of additional dielectrics in Bud's "thingies":

just because the magnet wire has some dielectric, you can alter the E field with more dielectric. And understand that a dielectric is a non conducter of electricity in an E field. But not neccessarily an "insulator". Note that all insulators are dielectric, but act as an electrical (as in charge ) insulator, not an insulator of the E field.

oops, nerdism is setting in, better stop....

Question to all: geek, nerd, dork, what's the difference?
 
Doh! Ground planes, I wonder if they serve food and Beeer????

Sounds like a book that I should read. Will see if I can track a copy down at the Public L or buy a second hand copy. Probably a very good investment and to go along with my copy of Ott. Thanks for the explaination, wish that Matrix download process was readily available today. Was at that workshop I mentioned on Sunday, was thinking about you about 2PM my time. Regards Moray James.
PS will be doing some experiments tonight will let you know what I find out.
 
Nanook,

Note that all insulators are dielectric, but act as an electrical (as in charge ) insulator, not an insulator of the E field.

Exactly! Only another charged plate can insulate from an E Field, hence Faraday.... although, multiple dielectrics can modify the charge accumulation characteristics on another charged plate, beyond those dielectric charge barriers, and, it does appear that they may also modify charge and discharge accumulation on the signaling plate, to no small degree.

Was I supposed to contact you about transformers? It is my field of endeavor. I do have some interesting points to make concerning the derivations from field theory and a question to address concerning bulk electromagnetic discharge behavior. Perhaps the answer is in one of your books?

Bud
 
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