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Old 24th February 2013, 06:53 PM   #501
wlowes is offline wlowes  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Marone View Post
I was skeptical as hell of both these loops, and to a lesser extent, EnAble, but after reading many of the accounts I'm more than open, and at this point believe there is a better than average probability they work. So, A.) I've got BG-Neo 3 tweeters, so I don't think they would benefit by EnAble, but just got Tang Band 4" titanium FR's to use as midranges, can I order some stencils to EnAble them and B.) I can't afford to buy these Audio Prism type devices, but would the wire from old voicecoils work to make my own? C.) Those felt triangles from Mssr. Gamboni(?) seemed promising from the start, and I need to take the driver out of my Velodyne sub to replace the surround anyway, what is the prescribed application protocol? D.) I don't have mid-woofers yet, but I guess I'll want to do both processes to the 8" inchers when they arrive.
I have experimented with all of these tweeks and some more.

Enable - Big yes! Particularly with paper cone drivers. Even small but nice effect on Seas silk domed tweeters. Now here is the big surprise.. Enable pattern around the outside edge of the speaker box very good.

The electron loops are easy to make. Use very fine magnet wire with 40+ loops. Not in the same league as Enable, but on my system just a hard to describe sense of system being right. Such a trivial thing to make, just try it. If it does not work for you throw it out.

The triangle things were a no for me. I removed them. I think there was just too much added mass.

On vintage paper cone speakers with stamped metal basket, the Planet 10 suggestions regarding dampening the baskets with modelling clay and felt on inside surface rounded out the tweak.
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Old 24th February 2013, 06:57 PM   #502
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Whew, lot's of ground to cover....

A. EnABL would provide an easier transition into the open air. Not a big deal but better focus and less directional is what you could expect from the GB-3. No pattern templates for the TB cones. You would have to learn all about EnABL to perform the work your self. Not out of the realm of possibility, but you would need to understand the Gen 2 activities to make a metal driver work properly. I could probably treat them for you, but it would cost more than the drivers are worth.

B. Reasonably effective devices were made by people on this thread and you can copy their work. Voice coil wire would probably work, but it would have to come from a high impedance speaker, just to get enough. Maybe Radio Shack still sells small amounts? These other guys got their wire from somewhere.

C. You would have to converse with the good Doctor Mamboni directly about the triangles. A number of people tried them and all reported good results. Those on the back side of the cone and EnABL on the front, well, I have no idea how that would work, but it is worth looking in to.

D. The 8 inch mid bass probably would not need the triangles, just EnABL.

Nelson Pass was an observer of the RMAS demonstration of EnABL'd Lowther drivers vs uncorrupted Lowthers of the same model, put on by Jon VerHalen 4 or 5 years ago. I have never read any comments from him. Other folks have commented, with Lynn Olson characterizing the difference as equivalent to a -20 drop in distortion.

Be happy to help you make a mess with your drivers over on the appropriate thread EnABL - Listening impressions & techniques - diyAudio

Bud
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Old 25th February 2013, 06:21 PM   #503
Davet is offline Davet  United States
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Default Ground Loops

I will only attempt to address you query regarding the ground loops. You can use the wire that one uses for voice coils. Unless you have a spool of wire, the amount of wire that comes off a voice coil former will not be long enough.

It is far easier to try a 26-inch piece of zip cord (wire used for most appliances). Split the wire into two pieces. Strip the ends of the two pieces. Loop the ends of each piece wire together to form a loop. Place each loop on a negative terminal.

Enjoy the phenomena!
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Old 25th February 2013, 08:37 PM   #504
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Thanks, gents. I thought the wire needed to be very fine, like litz. It's kind of funny that I saw and experienced too many things in my life that were just too inexplicable to hold on to a purely "rational" world view, and would say I became a bit of a mystic, yet held to a very skeptical take on sound reproduction. The amount of strong anecdotal testimony from people devoted to the pursuit of music on these items have convinced me that there is something there. I still believe in a largely mechanistic universe, but look at it this way-when all we knew of the electromagnetic spectrum was that little notch that is visible light, speaking of observed phenomenon relating to microwaves or x-rays would make one a mystic or just a whacko. Today's mystical whacko is often tomorrows scientific visionary once we understand the underlying mechanisms. I'm still not going to spend a lot of money on speaker cable or interconnects (not gonna buy junk either), and still think those little ebony disk things are placebos, but I'm going to experiment we these two items with an open mind, and maybe even try some blind tests.

"Trust in God, but keep your (gun)powder dry!"~Lord Admiral Nelson
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Old 25th February 2013, 09:41 PM   #505
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Try the lamp cored experiment first, just for proof of principle.

The Litz wire Ground Control is a tunable equivalent. Yup, tunable. The commercial version is set for neutral information support, across the FR band. Depending on a number of subtle but simple to manipulate relationships there is enough range that specific driver's needs can be met.

This is just LCR and unterminated wave guides working on the Heisenberg principle, splitting the information into the two possible low impedance "ground" paths. One rings in the local loop, the other rings down to the substation and back. When they are pulled back through the load the recombined signal is corrected by what is in the lower loss loop of Ground Control.

OR, something completely magical is going on. Involving stub antenna's that don't accept or radiate due to type 2 Litz wire proximity rejection and an undefined connection to the "truth" of the music somewhere or other.

Or, once again, I have proven my mystical ability to induce mass delusions. I personally favor the third option....

Bud
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:40 AM   #506
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Now I have a good excuse for dissembling junk speakers, and/or transformers(lot of those down the subway ;-). Another possibility: the strands should be pretty fine at these high gauges, so what would you think of my getting this bargain HIGH TEMP MIL-SPTFE Silver Plated Stranded Copper Wire priced per foot at 26-$0.11, 24-$0.12 and 22-$0.16, strip the PTFE and dip the wires in something to insulate them, varnish? The silver plating would add some panache, but don't know if it would have much effect; being a better conductor silver would have more electrons available in the loop, no? The place with the deals on the wire also have heat shrink deals, in particular the "kit" might be of interest to you and others for these electron lagoons. Wire.

I was already planning to damp all baskets before I read it anywhere-classic, paper-coned, steel, magnesium, polymer, aluminum, lead, anything but depleted uranium, maybe.

I firmly believe that human perception can impact objective reality directly. In combination with the "hundredth monkey" principle, you may just be doing as much, or more, in the realm of the collective unconscious posited by Jung than the actual brick & mortar acoustics, but as long as it benefits our musical enjoyment that doesn't matter.

btw: I think much of what is currently inexplicable or considered "mysticism" will find it's perfectly rational mechanistic "hows" after we recognize that there are more than 4 dimensions of space/time. Right now I've got my money on M-Theory, or something similar, and await news from the LHC at CERN.

Getting the empirical evidence for the rest of us besides Lynne, you, Cal, and a few others to grok EnABL will be a lot easier, I think. Have you considered approaching that big Canadian gov. sponsored research facility to give a shot at analyzing it? I'd hold out for the ol' US of A, but the Euros have already beat us to the punch on building an LHC, so what the hell?!

I'll try to put everything in the right forums, but my ADHD makes it a bit more challenging than for most. Maybe I should write everything flying through my mind in OpenOffice first, sort out what's what, then break into the proper forums. Since my keyboard has 'Forward' and 'Back' browser buttons just below the space bar, I tend to be long winded, and there is no auto-save here (unlike another audio blog I can think of :-)-yeah, that's a good idea, me thinks.

Thanks again.

Hey, you ever get down to Manhattan, I'd like to buy you lunch-as long as it isn't the last week of the month, then I'm usually pretty tight...
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Old 4th March 2013, 04:30 PM   #507
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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Has anyone tried identical electron loops on both terminals of a bridged amplifier?

As to the loop design, would extremely simple 5-10" long 18awg mil spec teflon wire turned as "air core inductor", with both ends connected the terminal, act as a electron loop (that actually does something positive), or should the other end be unterminated?

Regarding the speaker basket/chassis grounding (which acts with the same principle, as I read somewhere along the thread), would powder coated aluminum frame be ideal, or is it too much of the dielectric (being powder coated, propably some epoxy based powder coat)?

Last edited by Legis; 4th March 2013 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 4th March 2013, 11:48 PM   #508
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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You will have to answer most of these questions by trying them out. I would caution you not to rely upon Teflon insulated wire, only. Try cat 5 in increasing amounts until you achieve your sonic goals. Those goals will become apparent as you experiment.

As for the speaker basket just run a stainless steel screw into a hole on the basket. A hole that does not have coating in it, so likely one you drill out yourself. As for the coating, who knows? This is a surface area Vs dielectric material X dielectric constant relationship. Certainly every fiber in the Litz type 2 loops is coated with polyester resin over a nylon base coat. A very very thin coating though and it doesn't take much extra dielectric, of a low dielectric constant to influence how it interacts, with what it is attached to.

In general, so long as you have a closed loop to provide an unterminated wave guide, for the signal that enters to ring in, and do not short out the device you are attaching to, you will be fine.
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Old 4th March 2013, 11:59 PM   #509
GeneZ is offline GeneZ  United States
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I have been using groundside loops for some time. As per Bud's instructions, I used litz to construct my groundside loop.

I just tried something the other day.

I have been only using it on my negative side of my speaker terminals. I switched to the opposite terminal and notice the sound degraded. I then tried moving them to the amp's negative terminals. With the amp, I could not readily detect anything noticeable. When I moved them back to the negative terminals of my speakers, a dimensionality (which I had been taking for granted) returned to the experience. Since it sounds like music should, one may not think its doing anything to the signal.
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Old 5th March 2013, 12:30 AM   #510
wlowes is offline wlowes  Canada
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The amount of wire counts. I initially made them with 15-20 strands of 28awg. Noticed an improvement and thought this was IT. Later got a roll of 38awg and made loops with 40 strands. Bingo.
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