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Old 30th November 2011, 05:10 PM   #491
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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To rock the boat further I do not subscribe to listening tests only, as hearing can be fickle, but like measured data, so that there is empirical data to give hard results as to support the cahnge in sound and to determine what has caused it.
LOL. Boy are you in the wrong thread. This ground side electrons nonsense has zero proof, and not a thread of physics to support it.
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Old 30th November 2011, 07:34 PM   #492
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Personally, I think that the "number believers" are:
1) people who have poor hearing, or who do not trust their ears (which amounts to the same thing)
and / or
2) people who get "turned on" by the numbers themselves, rather than music - sort of like CPU overclocking maniacs.

To me hearing is all the proof I need; I have absolute hearing, I can play a few different instruments, I have been going to philharmonic performances since I was a kid - I have every reason to trust my ears, and I do.

And what I hear often goes completely against the so called scientific knowledge - which, to me only proves that a lot of what we call science now, will be called superstition in a hundred years.

My point is, current science cannot accurately and exhaustively describe all the processes that take place in the sound reproduction and perception, which means that science alone can only take us so far - beyond that, the only way to improve is through experimentation and listening. Which, rather perversely means that a TRULY scientific approach would take into account all the non-explainable phenomena - so long as they are audible and reproducible.
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Old 30th November 2011, 11:55 PM   #493
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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I have always been pleased by the following report from Dave Davenport.

Groundside Electrons

Marce you are spot on for your comments about NOT connecting these things to a digital ground. My now retired cheap Sony CD player lost it's ability to sync up with an external DAC for Red Book, within seconds of my first and only experiment with digital grounds and loops of Type 2 Litz wire. It's still retired for this reason!

Which brings me to another question. Can anyone point to testing of type 2 Litz wire as a stub antenna? Or, any other form of antenna for that matter? I am using it as unshielded interconnect cable and do not appear to have any audible pickup from airborne EMF, where an unshjelded stranded non Litz cable (both 2 meters in length) is quite a good antenna.

Bud
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Old 1st December 2011, 12:10 PM   #494
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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Uncle Leon, yawn, that is the usual reply, and not unexpected.
Cbdb, I have one of the first sets of enabled drivers (FE207's were in a Curvy Chang, now in an OB with 2 15" per side) done by Dave on Planet 10, so though it may surprise the only need ears fraternity, I am open to some insanity and will experiment and try new and esoteric ideas. I have also enjoyed the discussions these ideas on Bud's various threads, which by their very nature seem to invite very polarised views.
As to hearing, it was evidence and pointers for research put forth on this site that made me question not how good human hearing is; but how it can be affected by so many things, and as stated regarding the psychoacoustics', not only physical but mentally. Also my youngest son has neurological deafness that is more prominent in the higher frequencies, so I have spent the last 12 years taking him to audiologists and speech therapy, and surprisingly have learnt a little of these people regarding hearing. And finally I work for a company (Tactical Communications and Surveillance) that actually uses both measurements and listening tests (though run in a viable way, all participants' have their hearing tested so that there is a metric against what they hear, all done blind, multiple participants) these being modified rhyme tests and similar. And finally age, as the augurs' of hear all and design by ears only get older, their measuring equipment starts to deteriorate, and is much harder to replace than a good scope.
For the record I was brought up in a very musical household, my mother was a trombonist with Ivy Benson Dance Band, my father was into opera in a big way.
dorothy england
I had piano lessons from a very early age (and had no choice when it came to practicing every day), also played trombone (in the local Brass Band) and played bass guitar for a number of years in a band until work and the realities of life took over. So probably have some idea what music is, and using my ears.
Why have I spat my dummy out... Because I am fed up of being told, my hearing is defective, my system is not up to it etc etc, because I question beliefs and ask for some empirical data (Captain Capricorn syndrome), other than I can hear the difference...We need both measurements and listening impressions.
As to cant be measured (another repeated elucidation), in the electrical environment, I would speculate that any change that can produce and audible difference can be measured, get hold of a 13GHz scope and have a look at some wave forms...and before you all get on my case I did use the caveat of an audible difference regarding measurements. And finally when it comes to power supplies and digital design, hard empirical measurements are a necessity, though some of the hypothesises beginning to come out of the ever expanding DIY audio digital design, would be almost hilarious if it wasn't that they promote and influence BAD engineering practice.
As I have said before, we are creating a music reproduction system, so should use good engineering practices, we are not creating musical instruments...
Anyway rant over, this forum is better than therapy some times...
My apologies to Bud for his patience and to any Audiophiles I haven't upset today, keep up the good work, and as to the rest of us Have Fun
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Old 1st December 2011, 12:20 PM   #495
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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As to your other problem Bud, I would say its an EMC issue, one othe these links may help, conducted suseptability.
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990208.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990407.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/curre....asp?artid=500.
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990810.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/991005.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/991215.htm


http://www.compliance-club.com/curre....asp?artid=388
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi....asp?artid=406
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi....asp?artid=280



http://www.nutwooduk.co.uk/currentis....asp?artid=588

First Link Requires Login
http://www.compliance-club.com/KeithArmstrong.aspx

http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart1.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart2.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart3.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart4.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart5.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart6.pdf
http://www.compliance-club.com/pdf/EMCTestingPart7.pdf
EMC Design
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990208.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990407.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/curre....asp?artid=500.
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/990810.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/991005.htm
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi...ive/991215.htm


http://www.compliance-club.com/curre....asp?artid=388
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi....asp?artid=406
http://www.compliance-club.com/archi....asp?artid=280
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Old 14th January 2012, 05:44 AM   #496
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Just for fun, yet another review of Ground Control commercial products.

audioprism

Bud
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Old 2nd December 2012, 12:41 AM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP View Post
Marce you are spot on for your comments about NOT connecting these things to a digital ground. My now retired cheap Sony CD player lost it's ability to sync up with an external DAC for Red Book, within seconds of my first and only experiment with digital grounds and loops of Type 2 Litz wire. It's still retired for this reason!

Which brings me to another question. Can anyone point to testing of type 2 Litz wire as a stub antenna? Or, any other form of antenna for that matter? I am using it as unshielded interconnect cable and do not appear to have any audible pickup from airborne EMF, where an unshjelded stranded non Litz cable (both 2 meters in length) is quite a good antenna.
I take it that the distinction here is Type 2 vs. Type 1, Because I'm pretty sure that hams use Type 1 in antennae for its high Q.

Otherwise, even Type 1 should be somewhat immune to antenna effects, and yet it is used as a low loss antenna wire for crystal radios and such.

Hmmmm. Maybe it is the case that a twisted pair that is not connected at their ends are fairly immune to pickup, but once connected at the ends fully acts as an antenna.
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Old 2nd December 2012, 11:22 AM   #498
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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I think you could hang a capacitor or inductor at one end and also hear some effect. There is a reason why these devices work, and more likely compensates some deficiency in the circuit or layout design in the chassis.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:36 PM   #499
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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i think you are correct George. When Sy and Morgan Jones hung a pair of Ground Control items on Morgan's amplifiers, in a venue with suspect power, they could not detect any change. Just what you would expect from a Morgan Jones designed and built amplifier. Sy had the same results with his personal system, again what you might expect.

Fortunately for the GC product, that level of professionalism is not the norm.
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Old 24th February 2013, 08:49 AM   #500
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I was skeptical as hell of both these loops, and to a lesser extent, EnAble, but after reading many of the accounts I'm more than open, and at this point believe there is a better than average probability they work. So, A.) I've got BG-Neo 3 tweeters, so I don't think they would benefit by EnAble, but just got Tang Band 4" titanium FR's to use as midranges, can I order some stencils to EnAble them and B.) I can't afford to buy these Audio Prism type devices, but would the wire from old voicecoils work to make my own? C.) Those felt triangles from Mssr. Gamboni(?) seemed promising from the start, and I need to take the driver out of my Velodyne sub to replace the surround anyway, what is the prescribed application protocol? D.) I don't have mid-woofers yet, but I guess I'll want to do both processes to the 8" inchers when they arrive. Has Sir Nelson Pass given any statements on any of these tweaks? (this is about a tri-amp system coming together, for HT I'm just using NHT Super Ones).
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